The Bashing.

[Shawn Booth]

I've been a member here since (well look to your left). And I have been reading and following the posts here to learn what's what from both RED and RED users (that's the whole point right?).
But like in most forums, there's a lot of "heated-my ego is too big-I don't know everything but think I do" postings happening. Hell, I'm guilty of it (my apologies to crewpics).

Without giving examples and not posting to certain threads where it's inappropriate to the original poster -
If you feel some of us are fanboys/nutty amateurs/ zealots etc., good for you. Some of us are in fact. AND, some of us are professionals. Hell, some of us actually belong to 600 (or unions in other countries) - but just because you happen to hear, or not hear, RED conversations on set doesn't mean those who are speaking are the end-all-be-all of ANYTHING.
No, this camera isn't going to magically make anyone into anything other than a RED owner, but it is a tool in the filmmaking process that provides a professional quality most filmmakers can't usually afford. Times (and the industry) is changing, just as it always has. A lot of pros in LA/NY that I have worked with are used to the tried and true and hesitate when it comes to new technology - the RED is simply that. There is no need to feel threatened by those who own/use this camera. So you might have to learn another camera system. So. 5 years from now, I hope to see more digital cameras on set regardless of manufacturer. I mean, we make films with sound AND in color right?

So, if you feel the need to rag on anyone here, perhaps it's best in everyone's interest to just sit on it for a day before you vent your in the moment reaction to someone else's opinion. Especially if you aren't being constructive about it. (Again, I apologize to crewpics.)

 

[Joel Kaye]

I mean, we make films with sound AND in color right?

So, if you feel the need to rag on anyone here, perhaps it's best in everyone's interest to just sit on it for a day...

Right on. The vibe does get a little bad around here sometimes. We gotta sit back, grab a Corona and realize everything's just fine. We're talking about some pretty cool gear here. Whether people are newbies, dreamers or pros sorta doesn't matter does it? Anyone crazy enough to be here is probably someone we'd get along with better than 99% of the rest of the civilians out there... so what's the bitching really about anyway? Stupid stuff really.

For instance, how bad can a guy who names his camera Cassavetes possibly be? Peace.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

hear ya...

hear ya...

RED is in a strange kind of middle ground where you get professionals who want to use the camera and folks coming from the indie DV world...bound to be a little bit of conflict with diverse groups and heavy egos.

PS- I'm a crewpix fanboy!

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Mike Prevette]

Amen!

 

[RedDigitalGenius]

To RED or NOT TO RED

To RED or NOT TO RED

RED IS HERE AND IT'S NOT QUEER!

I just attended a RED event at Keslow Camera last week. The camera is meant for all - professional, amateurs, black, white, puerto rican, you name it, it is here. At this event, there were a lot of professionals there who wanted to get their hands on it and who wanted to put RED on "blast".

If anyone questioned it before going to this event, they aren't questioning it now. The footage is amazing.

 

[Shawn Booth]

RED IS HERE AND IT'S NOT QUEER!

I just attended a RED event at Keslow Camera last week. The camera is meant for all - professional, amateurs, black, white, puerto rican, you name it, it is here. At this event, there were a lot of professionals there who wanted to get their hands on it and who wanted to put RED on "blast".

If anyone questioned it before going to this event, they aren't questioning it now. The footage is amazing.

Ah... Keslow... I miss those guys...

 

[chuckt]

No, this camera isn't going to magically make anyone into anything other than a RED owner, but it is a tool in the filmmaking process that provides a professional quality most filmmakers can't usually afford.

Well said. But, most of those who ordered the cameras are in fact amateurs who think they will become a movie director by spending, in some cases their entire life savings for a camera body. Then they sit and wait for two years for delivery. In the meanwhile they imagine Jim is God and RED is heaven and other hallucinations. Too much waiting and anticipation can do this to people. When they add up $200 cables and $1500 rods, etc, the price of RED will become the same as or higher than a used Arri 535. When adding the cost of data backups and archiving and post production and film transfer, the cost of film making becomes more than traditional 35 mm film making. So, yes there are a lot of amateurs and even nut cases among the RED fans.

You said the right words. RED is not a magic wand. RED is only one of many video cameras out there. Jim is not God; just a businessman trying to make money by inventing a different mousetrap. Most of the RED fans will be better off buying a Sony Ex1 for $6500, including everything except tripod.
Others will find RED suitable for some purposes. Most professionals select the gear to suit their purpose and rent it for the period when they need it.

 

[Clint Johnson]

I've been praying to Jim that they enable the "Make a Blockbuster Movie" button in build 17... you're saying that I've been wasting my time?

What about if I sacrifice a goat to him?

 

[laguun]

Well said. But, most of those who ordered the cameras are in fact amateurs who think they will become a movie director by spending, in some cases their entire life savings for a camera body.

While there certainly are beginners, i have yet to meet a single customer of red who is not -highly- experienced and long in the business.

Firsthand red-users i know are all dp, owner of rental houses, producers, directors with lots of full-feature movies or docs on the counter.

When they add up $200 cables and $1500 rods, etc, the price of RED will become the same as or higher than a used Arri 535.

I would prefer a red over 535 for creative possibilities, workflow, rental value and several other reasons.

Btw: I am one of these crazy guys who, like even much more stupid amateurs as fincher, mann, lucas, annaud, in fact already preferred sony hdcam / thomson viper over the 535 for many reasons and bought a full kit in 2002....

When adding the cost of data backups and archiving and post production and film transfer, the cost of film making becomes more than traditional 35 mm film making. .

You have no clue.
A 500 Gbyte disk stores -hours- of red footage and costs ~100$ - you get minutes of 35mm film for the price of hours of 4K redcode. Furthermore, have you ever tried to back up negatives? You can make lesser quality copies, but you cant backup them. Tom cruise recently learned that the hard way when they lost days of shooting on 35mm on "Valkyrie". Filmout and all the cost are no higher or lesser on 35mm, except you are one of the few remaining people who dont want to have a DI.

You said the right words. RED is not a magic wand. RED is only one of many video cameras out there.

Correct, and many folks, from academy award winners to indie, prefer to shoot video for the big screen, which also is going to digital (or video projection, if you prefer) in blazing speed (4.600 cinemas converted in the USA in the recent 36 months, another 10.000 financed since one week for the next 36 months).

Jim is not God; just a businessman trying to make money by inventing a different mousetrap.

Jim sure is a excellent businessman. However he is the first billionaire i ever met who puts as much passion, energy, intelligence and time in a single product - and he for sure would have made more money in less time with other businesses.

Most of the RED fans will be better off buying a Sony Ex1 for $6500, including everything except tripod.

I think you are misunderstanding the red users base demographics quite a bit. For the most part, people have a hdcam/35mm or pro-broadcast background. Companies as angenieux and cooke already understood this....

Others will find RED suitable for some purposes. Most professionals select the gear to suit their purpose and rent it for the period when they need it.

the 35mm lens and red rental market will be highly interesting in 2008

furthermore, you might consider reading some professional photography forums of the late 90ties... you could copy and paste posts from there and simply would have to replace "insert digital SLR here" with red.

 

[laguun]

I've been praying to Jim that they enable the "Make a Blockbuster Movie" button in build 17... you're saying that I've been wasting my time?

Wait!!!! We need the "star-autocast" and "print $250.000.000" buttons first!

What about if I sacrifice a goat to him?

I think jarred already sacrificed his middle finger to one of the primitive goodnesses of red yesterday..

 

[Jeff Coatney]

There will be hundreds if not thousands of completely horrible, banal, trite and utterly incomprehensible films that will appear in the mailrooms of film festivals in the coming months. The tide will continue unabated for the foreseeable future yet they will have one thing in common, they will all look fantastic because they were shot with RED.

But out of that beautiful chaff will come precious little golden wheat in the form of brilliant, challenging, sublime and utterly transcendent films that will look beautiful because they were shot with RED. Yet, they too will have one thing in common, they will invariably be made by people who until RED, had no resources to make a truly "professional-looking" film.

RED is a Game-Changer. The lens makers know it, Avid knows it, Sony knows it and Kodak knows it. Will they invite the RED team into the Kodak theatre to give them their trophy? Will they allow them to walk across the RED carpet? Who knows. One thing is certain; the RED Carpet is about to walk over all of us.

 

[Greg M]

When they add up $200 cables and $1500 rods, etc, the price of RED will become the same as or higher than a used Arri 535.

Wow...did I miss something, when did Arri lower the cost of a 535?
If you can get a fully rigged 535 for around $50,000 (which would build you a pretty awesome Red setup) , I'll order two Arri's right now.

((FYI- An Arri set-up fully rigged would run you at least 3X the price of a Red fully rigged))

 

[Stuart English]

Future

Future

There will be hundreds if not thousands of completely horrible, banal, trite and utterly incomprehensible films that will appear in the mailrooms of film festivals in the coming months. The tide will continue unabated for the foreseeable future yet they will have one thing in common, they will all look fantastic because they were shot with RED.

But out of that beautiful chaff will come precious little golden wheat in the form of brilliant, challenging, sublime and utterly transcendent films that will look beautiful because they were shot with RED. Yet, they too will have one thing in common, they will invariably be made by people who until RED, had no resources to make a truly "professional-looking" film.

Spot on Jeff. Just like the desktop publishing revolution that Apple/Canon and Aldus/Adobe fathered.

More high quality print publications exist now than ever did before - the technology shift lowered costs and expanded the market.

 

[jpp]

There will be hundreds if not thousands of completely horrible, banal, trite and utterly incomprehensible films that will appear in the mailrooms of film festivals in the coming months. The tide will continue unabated for the foreseeable future yet they will have one thing in common, they will all look fantastic because they were shot with RED.

But out of that beautiful chaff will come precious little golden wheat in the form of brilliant, challenging, sublime and utterly transcendent films that will look beautiful because they were shot with RED. Yet, they too will have one thing in common, they will invariably be made by people who until RED, had no resources to make a truly "professional-looking" film.

RED is a Game-Changer. The lens makers know it, Avid knows it, Sony knows it and Kodak knows it. Will they invite the RED team into the Kodak theatre to give them their trophy? Will they allow them to walk across the RED carpet? Who knows. One thing is certain; the RED Carpet is about to walk over all of us.

There are already thousands of worthless films turning up at festival mailrooms, and that's been true for years, thanks to DV and other consumer formats. Some who might have bought a prosumer camera may now rent a Red instead, particularly when the market is flooded with unused cameras and rates drop. But that won't increase the total number of films. The number of people waiting for Red, and Red alone, has got to be very small.

This idea that all these worthless Red films will look great is a bit stupefying. How about lighting? Production design? Composition? Most of these films, if shot by amateurs, won't even be in focus. And you must know that there are plenty of 35mm films with poor production values. The same will be true of Red films, only worse, because the camera will be more accessible than 35mm, to untrained people.

And the "wheat and chaff" dynamic has already been in play in other formats, including 16mm, which looks pretty good these days, for years now. Democracy of formats hasn't to date produced great, transcendent or beautiful films. Stuff does get made that otherwise wouldn't, which is grand. And a miracle may some day occur. But moviemaking is above all about money, and Red doesn't change that fact. Even a free camera wouldn't make much difference, when you start looking at the other costs.

 

[Joel Kaye]

The same will be true of Red films, only worse, because the camera will be more accessible than 35mm, to untrained people.

This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure how many completely untrained people are dropping $50K on RED. I'm sure there are some - but I find the general assertion to be unlikely.

And having RED can provide a lot of training fast. I think technically people will get up to speed because it'll be so easy to practice and so quick to see results.

I used to do a lot of 35mm photography but I got much better, faster when digital SLR's showed up because the feedback was instant.

Now will people learn to be better storytellers? Probably some will.

And there's another factor here. Some people just want to have fun and shooting RED is really fun. Better than a sportscar as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Alan Skinner]

Want sportscar too!

 

[Shawn Booth]

When they add up $200 cables and $1500 rods, etc, the price of RED will become the same as or higher than a used Arri 535. When adding the cost of data backups and archiving and post production and film transfer, the cost of film making becomes more than traditional 35 mm film making. So, yes there are a lot of amateurs and even nut cases among the RED fans.

Well, most cables used in the film industry average higher than $200 per -
$1500 on rods? where'd that figure come from? $370 is the total if buying all 4 sizes from RED.

ChuckT, you're famous on this site. And part of the reason I started this thread. I was happy to see your post but I want to say - part of your comment is unfounded and incorrect.
Call me a nut, fine.

Also, film transfer for distribution is on its last legs. There are enough digital theatres that small films can release with digital prints.

There are also a lot of amateurs out there who rent full on 35mm film packages.

Who cares who rents what/buys what? I can't see how it affects anyone to the point of -

"The Bashing"