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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Teradek Cube: (how) is it working for you?

S

sander kamp

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So I signed up for the Teradek Cube group buy, got my product and looked forward to all the magic that was promised to us on the website and the videos.

The reality is a different one. Choppy video, disconnects, hangs, huge delays, broken recordings and lots and lots of frustration. Occasionally it works and the magic is there but inevitably it will start doing funny things again and you need to give it attention to make it work.

This feels like the most unfinished product I have ever bought - and I have a pretty low Red One number. I don't think the hardware is the problem, it's most likely the software but I am not an engineer so I can't tell.

So my question is: who is using this product and is happy with it? And how do you do that? I still have hope there is a magic combination of hardware and software, routers, laptops, ipads that all work together but after testing and testing I haven't found it.
 
Hi Sander-
I own 3 CUBEs and I've been working with them for about 6 months since the pre-release. I completely empathize with your situation, but after working with the CUBE for so long, I have come to rely on it for part of my business. Below are some areas I've identified that helped our CUBE integration. Feel free to examine it and see if it might work for you.
best,
m

SYSTEM
In my opinion, the Teradek CUBE is not a system, it's one component within a system. I think of working with the CUBE as one piece in a series of system components that all need to be appropriately aligned in order to function at their best. If you focus exclusively on the CUBE as the failure point, you may not be optimizing other components of the system that can improve your situation. Many times in testing we thought the CUBE failed when in actuality it was another component that contributed to the problem.

FIRMWARE
Firmware is a major contributor to overall stability. CUBEs do not typically ship with the most recent firmware. Check that all your firmware is up to date (4.x) and that your CPU is optimized as well.

CAMERA
I have found that for the CUBE to get all the info it needs properly in Proxy Mode, the camera needs to be setup properly as well. For example, RED One/MX delivers the proxy flags either when sound is disabled, or when the camera has proper jam. If the "JAM" menu is enabled and proper TC has not been fed, the camera will not send the flags and the CUBE will not trigger a recording. Rebooting after a proper JAM has been enabled will require a re-jam.
Another note on the camera issue is that these cameras are like little metal plates. Their own protective case is difficult to transmit through. Positioning a CUBE on top of a camera is essential, with the antenna pointed up above the rest of the camera. Many ACs velcro the CUBE on the smart-side of the camera, similar to an audio transmitter, however that means that roughly half the time, the camera itself is blocking the signal. Getting the antenna above and away from the camera is essential to solid transmission all day long.

DATA RATE & LATENCY
This is a topic that me and my team spent a lot of time examining. We tested and tested and tested to figure out the best setup for stability and fidelity. Finding the perfect setup is like placing a point in an isosceles triangle: you cannot easily balance your wishes between all sides. This means you have to choose what to give up in order to receive the best overall performance. We increase the latency of the CUBE so that our performance increases in parallel, and we change the data rate based on the type of room we are working in. Most locations (indoor and outdoor) are easily able to handle 2.5mb/s to 3mb/s without issue. With an increased latency and a low data rate, the stability of the CUBE dramatically increases and the images still deliver the ability to check critical focus.

NETWORK
This is the other area myself and my team tested and tested and tested. We went to FRYs and bought as many WiFi base stations as we could and started testing them week after week, month after month. This process of elimination allowed us to audit which networks were better and which were worse. We found it very interesting that the CUBE and the NFS mount worked fine with Proxy recording, but the base station was often the point of failure. If you have a fickle base station and it needs a simple reboot, it's very hard to identify that, yet the CUBE appears to have "crashed." Furthermore, some base stations have a log-like fall-off of signal strength. In other words, the signal fades out at a more rapid rate the further away you get. So 30 feet away might be half the signal of 25 feet away, etc.
We have identified different "categories" of base stations that deliver a more reliable signal. While NETGEAR has proved to us as the most stable, the D-Link allows for dual channels with remote antenna. With the dual channel and antenna's, we can have one band dedicated to receiving, one to transmitting, and the antennas positioned above 6'.

NFS
This type of setup can be tricky, and I do know that we trouble-shot with the NFS configuration when we got our first CUBE. Teradek is currently building a new ONE-TOUCH NFS Setup Manager that will simplify this greatly.

SYSTEM CONFIGURATION
Personally speaking, we use multiple CUBEs literally every day on different shoots. We're even starting to do it with Epic. Our workflow is as follows:
+ SDI out of both cameras (1 & 2) to Video Village (hardwire config)
+ SDI out of steadicam camera (for WiFi config)
+ SDI loop-through 2 village monitors to LiVEPLAY Pelican Case
+ SDI 1 and 2 feed into 2x CUBEs in LiVEPLAY Pelican Case
+ NFS mount is created for both CUBEs on Apple MacBook Pro 13"
+ Proxy Mode enabled for auto-capturing m4v files @ 3mb/s, 1280 or 1080 to our webserver software package, LiVEPLAY Server
+ MacBook Pro GigE connection to D-Link DIR-825 and transmitted using dual-band on 2.5Ghz channel
+ Wireless CUBE recieved on D-Link DIR-825 5Ghz channel
+ m4v recordings are separated by camera ID (A, B, C, etc.)
+ m4v recordings are then instantly fed to iPads running our iPad integration player, LiVEPLAY.
+ iPad LiVEPLAY collaboration data fed back to LiVEPLAY Server where it is re-transmitted to other all active iPads in the vicinity
 
I have to agree with Michael. I have been using the CUBE for about 5 months in all kinds of configurations and find that the CUBE if functioning properly, but the programs we are using to view the stream or create the NFS share are the weak points.

I have used the CUBE in infrastructure mode with an AirPort Extreme to a MacBook Pro creating proxies and viewing them on an iPad with great results on recent firmware. It was rough at first but through all the updates the CUBE has become very reliable.

This past week I did a run and gun music video. We were running around the desert and a backlot with no time or power to set up monitors. So I brought the CUBE in AdHoc mode and the director used his iPad2 with Oplayer HD lite. It worked very well, I only had to help him once or twice with it. However, a few other people on the shoot also had iPad2s and downloaded Oplayer HD lite and they could not get the stream. I couldn't figure it out, maybe there was an update to the software that broke its ability to view the RTP stream. Other than that the director viewed all the takes from his iPad with about a 10 or so frame delay.

So at this point I think the main thing causing the issues is that we are using programs/software that weren't built for what we are using it for and we are pushing them to the breaking point. If teradek were to create the software and apps for use with the cube I think many of these problems would go away.
 
Curtis Abbott said:
So I brought the CUBE in AdHoc mode and the director used his iPad2 with Oplayer HD lite. It worked very well, I only had to help him once or twice with it. However, a few other people on the shoot also had iPad2s and downloaded Oplayer HD lite and they could not get the stream. I couldn't figure it out, maybe there was an update to the software that broke its ability to view the RTP stream..
Click to expand...

The very nature of ad hoc networking is that you can only connect two devices together, i.e. the Cube with one iPad. If you want to connect more than one device, you absolutely need to use infrastructure mode with a router.
 
Actually Stephen, that's not true. It says the Cube connects to 3 iPads/iPhones simultaneously without a router. We just got ours a week ago and didn't test 3, but I did get it on our iPad and my iPhone (after downloading the apps). So we had it on 2 devices simultaneously and it worked flawlessly from an EX3 for testing.

We LOVE the Cube so far. I do wish they made an all in one app/player rather than those small ZeroConfSpy and oPlayer apps.

They have a great product on their hands...we're very happy with it so far.
 
Stephen Strangways said:
The very nature of ad hoc networking is that you can only connect two devices together, i.e. the Cube with one iPad. If you want to connect more than one device, you absolutely need to use infrastructure mode with a router.
Click to expand...

Kevin is correct. I did a test with the CUBE and 3 iPads before this job and had them streaming for atleast 4 hours with no problems. No increase in delay that I could tell. in AdHoc mode.

I brought my iPad and iPad2 along with me and gave them to people to view the stream. The directors worked along with mine simultaneously. I have had oPlayer for a few weeks and the guys who could view the stream had just downloaded it. So I think that oplayer received an update that doesn't allow it to view the RTP stream or they had something funky going on with their iPads.

Has anyone had similar issues? I don't want to update oplayer if it is going to break the RTP streaming capability.
 
Thanks everybody! This helps to get me on the way again and I will give it another try.

I do have the latest 4.4.0 firmware on my Cube.

Michael Cioni said:
We went to FRYs and bought as many WiFi base stations as we could and started testing them week after week, month after month.
Click to expand...

Michael, I very much appreciate your extensive post! But... this kind of testing and testing for months and months - I really don't have the time and means for that. And it is not something I anticipated when buying this product. Now, I understand that you don't work for Teradek so I am not complaining to you but I do think the kind of support Teradek is giving is not enough. The videos on their website and the stories here on reduser make it seem all very simple and reliable and don't mention anything about the need of months and months testing on your own, let alone the need to build a whole system around it with people who support it on the set.

I really wished Teradek offered a configuration that works reliable. Like: this and that router, software versions, OS, etc. have been tested. Then people can take it from there and try to improve on a system.

Yes, software support for this product is very limited. VLC is just not ideal for this kind of set up. It hangs, crashes, can't connect, gives lots of error messages and so on. It is not something you want to explain to a director on a set. Teradek needs to make their own software or adapt form others.

One problem I have is that when the NFS disk for proxy recording is not available the video stream will stall when recording is activated. This will happen right at the most inconvenient time. I have talked to Teradek about this and hopefully they will find a solution.
 
Curtis Abbott said:
I brought my iPad and iPad2 along with me and gave them to people to view the stream. The directors worked along with mine simultaneously. I have had oPlayer for a few weeks and the guys who could view the stream had just downloaded it. So I think that oplayer received an update that doesn't allow it to view the RTP stream or they had something funky going on with their iPads.

Has anyone had similar issues? I don't want to update oplayer if it is going to break the RTP streaming capability.
Click to expand...


On the Teradek forum somebody said that downgrading OPlayer to v1.0.13 makes it work again. Apparently the latest version doesn't work.

Has anybody tried if an iPad 2 can handle a HD stream? I tried on a iPad 1 and it could display it but played in slow motion as if it was not able to process the video fast enough.
 
I have been using the Cube since last summer. It has performed well for me. The easiest set up is with their receiver. It works fine on my mac with VLC. I have only had issues with some of my clients computers that were not on the latest OS. The proxy recording is a great feature as it lets your client review footage without stoping the camera department.
I use a Airport Extreme that I put on a C-stand (Airmount and VESA mount from Filmtools.com). One channel to the cube the other to the computer.
I have had up to 3 Macs connected. Placement of the WIFI is important. I have had success with the camera over 75 feet away.
 
Since firmware build 4.3 It's been 100% reliable for me. I've only been using it in wired mode, though.
Early on, I nearly had a stroke trying to get it configured, and keeping it going on set. It really was looking hopeless until the recent firmware builds. We are dealing with a company that knows a lot about networking, but, by their own admission, not a lot about cameras.
Unfortunately, they are selling to camera people without qualifications in network administration. Teradek absolutely need to team up with someone who can create a simple software solution.
The ideal product in this area will be something more like the Red h264 module, that can make files without a computer, and serve them out to ipads from there, or act as a recorder/drive that a computer can access for the air video server app.

... But just repeating, I have kept myself to wired mode, for creating h264s the primary purpose of the cube on set, and now have good reliability. Recent improved stability of the cube has made the cumbersome software setup less of an issue.
 
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