tech kills the creative

[Nick Gardner]

Sorry to hear that Nate - I disagree with the assistant part not making you a better DP though. I've learned a lot from being an assistant. Things you can only learn working WITH/for cinematographers because I was the 2nd or the camera PA.

I agree. I think it's a really interesting catch 22 because you can't really be the best assistant until you have done the job of the DP, and have an understanding of the pressures they are under. Once you have done that, you can really concentrate not just on doing an excellent technical job, but taking some of the pressure off as well. At the same time, a DP who has never been an AC will often make unreasonable demands as far as time and the realities of pulling focus, because they don't understand everything that is involved in being an AC.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

If you take away shop talk then all you have left are people standing around awkwardly looking at their shoes.

But I do agree. "If it looks good it looks good." But as soon as you want to create similarly good looking footage you're back into tech talk. "How did you get such great color reproduction?" "Well I overexposed one stop and boosted the contrast curve like blaahh blah blah..."

Agree.

But like I said.. im not bashing tech talk. I embrace tech talk 100%
and would be bored looking at other peoples work all day and not Learning from it.

Im bashing naysayers who wanna tell me the technical short comings, or what have you.

I just say look at the picture and shut up


By the way.. I chose a bad topic "tech kills creative" I didnt mean it like THAT

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I agree. I think it's a really interesting catch 22 because you can't really be the best assistant until you have done the job of the DP, and have an understanding of the pressures they are under. Once you have done that, you can really concentrate not just on doing an excellent technical job, but taking some of the pressure off as well. At the same time, a DP who has never been an AC will often make unreasonable demands as far as time and the realities of pulling focus, because they don't understand everything that is involved in being an AC.

Cheers,

Nick

Very true Nick.

thats why I think its good to work as a (non leadership role) on a BIG film set.
yet do leadership roles (DP) on smaller budget, indie projects
You learn alot on the studio set.. and apply it on your DP projects at home

 

[M Most]

I think young guys have alot of creativity and can problem solve situations that arent necessarily "text book"
where as alot of the older guys (no one here of course)
are set in their ways...

And a lot of "young guys" don't have any real creativity and are stuck when a problem occurs that they haven't seen before. And a lot of "older guys" are some of the most experimental shooters I've ever seen (I would nominate "older guys" like Roy Wagner, Bob Primes, and Robert Richardson in this category - as well as "middle age guys" like Brian Reynolds and Tom Sigel, to name a few).

Creativity has nothing to do with age. It has to do with, well, creativity. Experience is the best teacher, whether you can see that now or not. But the problem with experience - as with many things in life - is that you don't appreciate its value until you are, well, experienced enough to understand it. That's not to say that you can't be an accomplished and effective artist at a younger age. You can. But you will likely make assumptions about those who came before based on a lack of understanding of what motivates them and judge only what you think you see as the result. If one lets go of the cliches, it sometimes becomes easier to see a bigger world.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

mmost,
Absolutely.

 

[M Most]

mmost,
Absolutely.

BTW - and back on topic - I do think there has been far too much concentration on tech over the last few years. And I do agree that a concentration on tech leads to less focus on pure creativity and attention to the true craft of cinematography. My own observation is that a lot of the guys coming up are tending to become good technicians and mediocre (I'm trying to be kind here) shooters and storytellers. I constantly read about people recommending film schools based on the equipment they happen to have. That alone is a very bad sign.

 

[Ramona Howard]

Old man Most said what I was gonna say only nicer and more diplomatic like. I shudder to think how much I thought I knew when I was in my 20's........... ;-)

Nick

He's mellowing out in his old age

Constructive advice should not be confused with criticism. The technical expertize of the old guys is something you shouldn't piss on, it merits great respect. Much of what we do in the "new" is based on the "old".

There is not a single tool, be it a RED or anything else that solves ALL the problems and I agree, a great artist, can make a great flick using anything. History has proven this.

Jedi, as you age, this you will discover.....however every now and then there is a great tool that rolls around that is used forever, chances are it was invented by some old fart, who has been working in the industry for years....

Cheers,
Ramona

 

[Craig Ryan]

BTW - and back on topic - I do think there has been far too much concentration on tech over the last few years. And I do agree that a concentration on tech leads to less focus on pure creativity and attention to the true craft of cinematography. My own observation is that a lot of the guys coming up are tending to become good technicians and mediocre (I'm trying to be kind here) shooters and storytellers. I constantly read about people recommending film schools based on the equipment they happen to have. That alone is a very bad sign.

Good points.

Being guilty of the description above, I can say that when I finally got to film school, I was amazed at the kind of stuff my peers were creating. I came in with a false sense of sophistication, when really what I had was an abundance of useless technical information that really had no use to me at the time, and I had lost my creativity in a galaxy far far away. I had to get get off the forums for a while and rekindle my need to tell stories.

Of course though, in a forum, this IS the place to talk tech. Quite frankly there is hardly ANY tech talk at the school I attend, so I need the forums here to keep the balance. Plenty of creativity going on when I'm at school, and that's what it should be, because there's plenty of time to talk tech, as been pointed out in this thread..whether over a beer or in a group.

Then again, if all you want to do is be a DIT for life or some other tech job and never tell your own stories, then you can forget creativity all together

 

[Tom Lowe]

I admit to being very obsessed with new technology for cinema acquisition. But I do feel 100% confident that my obsession with tech has paid off bigtime, allowing me to create moving images that really would have been impossible -- simply impossible -- only 3 years ago.

Several great directors I admire, like Kubrick and Malick, are known for their obsession with gear and technique.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

heres a loose example of tech over creativity...

And I am NOT alone.. as I use to be heavily involved in the music industry (especially in electronica and trance production)..

I became a gear slut. especially synths.. software.. so on..

I use to be super creative and innovative when it came to writing tracks.
Then the gear took over..
I had too many options to choose from (sounds.. hardware vs software.. ect...)
I over analyzed music production and eventually the creative aspect of it all DIED.

this same type of thing can happen in film production.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I find just as many young posters obsessed with specs and tech as any older person, here on this site or any other site, and I see just as much bashing going on of one thing or another among younger people as I do older people.

Many of the hardcore "film is dead" and "digital sucks" people on many websites are young and passionate. Older professionals know that the world uses both technologies and that they have to master both technologies, and that every tool is better at some thing than other things, so the only way to make intelligent choices is to learn what's out there. Sure, some older folks are also highly biased and opinionated, but I don't think that's particularly a product of getting older. Sometimes only a young person can maintain a strong opinion because they haven't had a lifetime of experience -- and compromise -- to soften them.

I agree that some people have an obsession with spec figures, thinking that all good things derive from that. Trouble is that specs are not always clear indicators of picture quality, plus technical quality and good images are not always the same thing.

But if the point of the original post was to complain about people using specs and tech figures to beat up on RED... I'd say there is just as much knee-jerk "the RED is better because it's 4K" or "because it's RAW" simplistic postings going on out there.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

True David.
And your right about the reverse side of things.
People claiming film is dead and so on.. because Red does this, and film doesnt.. so on.

Age really has nothing to do with the matter, because I know dudes who are well experienced (been in it a longggg time) and they have no qualms with new technology whatsoever.
In fact.. the smart once embrace it 100% to stay on top of the game.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

What we do in filmmaking and cinematography is both an art and a science. But the qualities that make a good artist are not always exactly the same qualities that make a good scientist (though there are many simularities). Both require acts of imagination, dedication to craft... but art tends to reward or encourage a certain amount of personal eccentricity where illogical, emotional intrepretations can be as cherished as insights based on observation, experimentation, facts, and experience. Whatever works for the artist, helps them create.

I've met both highly technical cinematographers and ones that were practically luddites, and both types can be great artists or poor artists. And depending on the degree of technical support they get from their crews, the less technically minded cinematographers can go quite far if they have talents for lighting, composition, and telling stories through images.

But I try to not make judgments about artistic talent based on how much a person likes to discuss technology. However, I do sometimes make judgments about how practical a cinematographer might be based on their obsession with technology...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ive seen crap images shot on RED and AMAZING images shot on less expensive (less tech) cameras and vice versa.

Yeah but I've never seen good greenscreen (or even barely usable greenscreen footage) off of a DV camera.

Also I know that better cameras DO enhance my artistry. When I shoot on film I point it at a subject that looks interesting. I get the negatives back and it looks great! I point a cell phone camera at the same scene and it's.... interesting but nothing like what I saw when I was there. It's all contrasty and over saturated with black shadows and white highlights.

It goes back to my original theory. Tech enables creativity.

It lets me not worry about techy things like protecting my highlights or ensuring the scene is all within an extremely narrow band of exposure. It lets me just frame my shot and shoot knowing that I've got some wiggle room later to find the correct exposure.

If you have a camera with 23 stops and a camera with 5 stops of latitude you're going to have a MUCH easier time getting a great looking image out of the HDR camera. You let the camera conform to the world instead of forcing the world to conform to your camera.

If you have a camera that is native ISO 1000 and a camera that is native ISO 100 you're going to have an easier time creating great footage on the ISO 1000 camera. You can shoot at night with available light. You don't have to bring in a generator and a condor. That's creativity being saved by tech.

The very ultimate extension of this theory is virtual cinematography. I can play in my little box on the computer moving lights around, making lights that are invisible to the camera, blocking out actors, animating cameras... everything all through my virtual window. That's ultimate creativity. There are no limits. No need to rig anything. No need to lay track. It needs to be made faster. It needs to be made easier. It needs to be made more collaborative. But ultimately if you get enough tech you strip away all of the impediments of filmmaking and you can do anything your mind thinks up. It's all far too clunky right now. But in 10 years it'll be a breeze.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Wanna bet?

JPP, any specific examples?

Robert Rodriguez said it best.

It's all about finding a balance between creativity tech: knowing what you can do with the technology and how it works so you can work at the speed of thought; the speed of creativity. Your creativity can be limited if you don't know what's possible. And of course once you get too involved witht he tech side, you loose that internal spark of creativity.

On the other side of the coin all what Rodriguez has done so far, shows nothing more than the intellect of an infant.

Tech enables creativity.

I guess it's vice-versa. What comes first is the idea I assume?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Tech makes life easier. Easier lives mean more freedom to be creative.

Without tech we wouldn't be talking about picture quality we would be looking at waveforms trying to make sense of analog sensor signals.

Tech Saves Creativity.

It depends.

At a certain point complexity of technology starts to limit creativity. It boils down to how practical + intuitive that technology actually is. I've seen a lot of software makers forgetting about that. Mind navigation/orientation + logic are often disregarded.

By the way how do you talk about creativity? "Hey who here made good pictures today? Cool. Me too!" It's a very short conversation. Talking about tech is the point of a web forum, it's what it's good at. So it's only natural that the conversation tends to stay on topic to things that actually can be discussed.

I agree. Creativity is not discussable matter. Tools, techniques, experiences etc...are.

 

[Liam Hall]

heres a loose example of tech over creativity...

And I am NOT alone.. as I use to be heavily involved in the music industry (especially in electronica and trance production)..

I became a gear slut. especially synths.. software.. so on..

I use to be super creative and innovative when it came to writing tracks.
Then the gear took over..
I had too many options to choose from (sounds.. hardware vs software.. ect...)
I over analyzed music production and eventually the creative aspect of it all DIED.

this same type of thing can happen in film production.

It didn't happen to Kraftwerk who, despite being very old, still play to sell out audiences.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Success in the media industry is based on what I like to call the Four T's: Talent, Training, Technology, Tenacity.

We're born with Talent, we seek Training, we acquire Technology, and we learn Tenacity.

These T's all dance in unison. Creativity originally derives from Talent, but it can actually be unleashed by the overlay of Training (experience), appropriate Technology for your genres of production, and unyielding Tenacity (perseverance).

When someone has the Four T's in their arsenal they're still not guaranteed of success in this industry - but their chances are seriously enhanced.

My best suggestion is to select work genres that you love. That way you'll have passion for your work - and your creativity will naturally emerge.

I'd suggest being challenge driven, rather than strictly money driven. You'll love your work - and if you do your work well enough for long enough, money inevitably arrives.

A thought on knowledge:

Knowledge taken correctly, should help the learner realize that the more they know, the more they should realize they don't know. We work in a dynamic industry - nothing is completely static. Our learning curve is perpetual - its the nature of this industry. Someone who thinks they have all the answers and "has arrived", has probably just closed their mind and stopped learning - a professionally dangerous position to take.

A final thought:

Approach each day in this industry expecting to learn many things - and be disappointed if you don't - that will drive you to continually progress, and inject you with fresh passion for your work!

 

[DCC Erickson]

Burn out

Burn out

heres a loose example of tech over creativity...

And I am NOT alone.. as I use to be heavily involved in the music industry (especially in electronica and trance production)..

I became a gear slut. especially synths.. software.. so on..

I use to be super creative and innovative when it came to writing tracks.
Then the gear took over..
I had too many options to choose from (sounds.. hardware vs software.. ect...)
I over analyzed music production and eventually the creative aspect of it all DIED.

this same type of thing can happen in film production.

Been there - I was a regular drum machine/synth whore in the '80s. Got burned out to a crisp. Now I strum my guitar in the living room and try to find the joy that was there before. It's coming back, a little bit every day. Got into film and I will never let gear dictate my creativity, ever again.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

There are ass bags everywhere, even DVXuser! So many people seem to be on edge! And very likely due to the economy... we are in the worst of it, the end of the bottom, the point where people have the least money in their bank accounts. It seems tons of productions are gearing up, at least that is what I hear. Thank goodness SAG is sending out ballots! Finally.

I completely agree what there is too much emphasis on tech, possibly because of the crazy growth spurt thanks to Red shaking things up and the eminent point in time when digital will match specs of film... but in the end it doesn't matter what you shoot in, it is all about what you shoot and how you do it.

An other reason may likely be that so many are sitting at home more than usual, but as soon as work kicks up again that may change.

Anywho... I wish lots of work to everyone and that you create great content with a group of people with the same focused... and that they are all chill and one with the universe.