tech kills the creative

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I think there is WAYYYYY to much tech crap going on..

People here.. people on cml.. cinematography. snobby 1st ac's..
all talk about the specs or lack there of, of the RED ONE.
"but f35 is this... genesis does this.. red doesnt have so and so.."

I dont care about numbers.. photosytes. ccd vs cmos. whatever.
I care about making the picture look good. Well lit, proper exposure, framing, so on.
The RED can look amazing.. or like complete crap. it depends on alot of things (yes some technical stuff involved.. but mostly basic cinematography)

so when people complain about wether its a real 4k camera or wether it has this or that.. I just like to say, yeah but it looks good. cuz isnt that what really matters in the end?

sorry.. just had to vent

 

[Bruce Allen]

Totally agree...

Although shouldn't you change your name from the "4K Ninjas" then?

Just kidding :beer:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Andrew Walker]

I don't even like going over to Cinematography dot com because of the people being total ass bags. Not saying that all of them are like that. But there is a good portion that think because the Red camera is obtainable that it shouldn't be in the same class as the F23 or all the other $200K cameras out there.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Agree Andrew. I just browse it for knowledge and stay away from the ignorance.
I use to think.. and still think that most of the bashing, is from older guys who fear that the new obtainable system will give an advantage to the young guys who are, just as (if not more) talented.

 

[jpp]

I care about making the picture look good. Well lit, proper exposure, framing, so on.

And there are countless films which satisfy all those requirements, and are useless, derivative and empty.

The financial and practical requirements of getting a movie made tend to discourage visionaries. Which may be why we get lots of Star Treks, Star Wars and Star Vehicles but not much Shakespeare or Beethoven (speaking equivalently).

We live this phenomenal life of the senses and play out an inherently tragic narrative and watch mind-altering events defeat all expectations and beggar the imagination, and what do people want to make movies about? Other movies. Comic books. TV shows.

"Tech fundamentalism" is one way of dealing with a fundamental deficit of ability, as is consumerism generally. It's far easier to worry about whether a camera sensor delivers maximum resolution, than whether you have an original thought in your head.

 

[Liam Hall]

How times change. It used to be posters on here saying RED ONE can do this, film can't do that. Indeed, there's a thread on here where a DoP gets abuse for suggesting he prefers the look of film to the look of his RED. It's always been silly, pointless and juvenile. I guess people who engage in it are more than a little insecure about their own ability and professional standing.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Although shouldn't you change your name from the "4K Ninjas" then?

Just kidding :beer:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Lol, Bruce, don't push it...

As for cinematography.com, most of the regular posters there who bashed Red One have been totally discredited. They have no credibility whatsoever. But somehow they still have the nerve to show their faces. It's sort of like these preachers who get caught and exposed in some scandal. After laying low for a while, they creep back and act as if nothing happened. Somehow Jim has some inside info about some of them, though, who tried to bash him under fake screennames. Jim cracks me up with his posts there. :sifone:

 

[NateWeaver]

People focus on the tech because it is the one thing that appears if you work hard enough, you will be able to understand. It's "study friendly". It's also, unfortunately, internet discussion friendly.

Creative on the other hand is this undefinable, un-calculatable unknown which takes years of DOING and experience before you get anywhere, and even then there's no guarantees that you will comprehend, much less master.

My own personal struggle has been to undo all the years of assistant camera work, then camera-nerdism that I've indulged in for the past 10 years. None of that helps me become a better director, or frankly, even a better director of photography.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Tech makes life easier. Easier lives mean more freedom to be creative.

Without tech we wouldn't be talking about picture quality we would be looking at waveforms trying to make sense of analog sensor signals.

Tech Saves Creativity.

By the way how do you talk about creativity? "Hey who here made good pictures today? Cool. Me too!" It's a very short conversation. Talking about tech is the point of a web forum, it's what it's good at. So it's only natural that the conversation tends to stay on topic to things that actually can be discussed.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

It's always about content and originality. Producer Arthur Cohn said something very clever once: The chance that a talented director fails with a bad script is high enough, while a bad director can't kill a good script. It's always about message whether in still photography, literature or whatever or you just do superficial formalism that bores. Like 99% of that hollywoodcrap or musicvideos with zero content.

 

[jpp]

By the way how do you talk about creativity? "Hey who here made good pictures today? Cool. Me too!" It's a very short conversation.

You *don't* talk about creativity, which is probably the point: the fact that we can talk about so many other areas of contention isn't necessarily meaningful or useful.

Maybe the original poster meant mindless tech obsessions, rather than tech itself. There's nothing inconsistent with understanding the tools of the trade and "creativity". For that matter, you can't have creativity without craft. Or is this getting to be all too obvious and self-evident? Another useless discussion?

while a bad director can't kill a good script.

Wanna bet?

 

[Craig Ryan]

Robert Rodriguez said it best.

It's all about finding a balance between creativity tech: knowing what you can do with the technology and how it works so you can work at the speed of thought; the speed of creativity. Your creativity can be limited if you don't know what's possible. And of course once you get too involved witht he tech side, you loose that internal spark of creativity.

Some things I do to keep myself in check on the creative side (which is probably the part most of us on REDuser are most likely to loose occasionally ) is to go back to something nostalgic, something inspiring, or just search for something entirely new. Both bring me back to a place I was many years ago, before I got into any tech at all; that initial spark that said "wow I want to make movies". It's a very special place that I think we all struggle to preserve as we progress in tech knowledge. The masters are the ones who have found the balance of both worlds, and have preserved their initial spark well inside.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

By the way how do you talk about creativity? "Hey who here made good pictures today? Cool. Me too!"

This point makes sense.. obviously were on a board that has to do with a piece of camera tech that has changed alot of things in the industry.

But, I guess my main point wasnt to make all tech talk moot, but rather my disgust with people bashing certain pieces of equipment over spec facts, when actions (pictures) speak louder than words.

 

[Alexander Alexandrov]

i admire what RED is doing; they are true pioneers making the bridge between having the revolutionary tools available (to anyone sincerely dedicated) and creative realization smaller and smaller.

today, tech is more available to a commoner than ever to have the tools to execute and realize creative vision (if any). like many industries - there's a sense of a "it's a private club", a club they dont want newcomers in. a world of scarcity, hierarchy and limitation - things that steer up snobby attitudes. but these are secondary things to get through. the nucleus comes from within. and tech only becomes more available.

 

[M Most]

I use to think.. and still think that most of the bashing, is from older guys who fear that the new obtainable system will give an advantage to the young guys who are, just as (if not more) talented.

Let me make a wild guess: You're "young."

Let me make a further wild guess: You haven't worked with a lot of "older guys" who have honed their skills, craft, and artistry over many years of doing this for a living. Because if you have, you'd be more likely to see that the skepticism that's shown by them is based on wanting claims to be proven, to see for themselves and judge for themselves what a particular device can do, rather than accepting others opinions or buying into general hype. Once they test a device, they then form a personal opinion on what it might or might not be appropriate for and use it accordingly. "Fear" is something "the young" seem to think is the motivator. Obtaining the facts and evaluating things based on their own particular likes, dislikes, and shooting style is the real motivator. If anything, experienced, successful cameramen are quite secure in their grasp of the craft and their ability to do their job. And for the most part, they really enjoy helping talented "young" shooters to become true artists. At least the ones who don't have a superiority complex...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It's fun to talk shop. It's as simple as that. It's something concrete. It's an easy way to exchange ideas. It's a tangible and universal discussion.

Discussing artistry or talent is always pretty pointless.

It's just like everyone who comes onto a CG forum asks "how do I make gollum?" "You be a good artist." Artistry is a personal experience, it's not a point of discussion. You can talk about specific elements of an artists work which you like, but ultimately that becomes shop talk as soon as you quantify it into words and discussion.

If you take away shop talk then all you have left are people standing around awkwardly looking at their shoes.

But I do agree. "If it looks good it looks good." But as soon as you want to create similarly good looking footage you're back into tech talk. "How did you get such great color reproduction?" "Well I overexposed one stop and boosted the contrast curve like blaahh blah blah..."

 

[Nick Gardner]

Old man Most said what I was gonna say only nicer and more diplomatic like. I shudder to think how much I thought I knew when I was in my 20's........... ;-)

Nick

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Let me make a wild guess: You're "young."

Let me make a further wild guess: You haven't worked with a lot of "older guys" who have honed their skills, craft, and artistry over many years of doing this for a living.

yes. I am young (27)

But No, i have worked with many older guys who have honed their skills.

So while my thoughts on why there was so much animosity may be inaccurate, I dont see how skepticism could cause so much disdain.
But I digress.

I was merely talking about tech vs quality.

Tech is Important, but shouldnt overshadow quality or creativity.
Ive seen crap images shot on RED
and AMAZING images shot on less expensive (less tech) cameras
and vice versa.

 

[Shawn Booth]

My own personal struggle has been to undo all the years of assistant camera work, then camera-nerdism that I've indulged in for the past 10 years. None of that helps me become a better director, or frankly, even a better director of photography.

Sorry to hear that Nate - I disagree with the assistant part not making you a better DP though. I've learned a lot from being an assistant. Things you can only learn working WITH/for cinematographers because I was the 2nd or the camera PA.

Plus, as a DP you're responsible for 3 distinct crews... I know you know this and that cinematography is way more than just the image but I felt I should say this anyway for those who don't "get it"

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Old man Most said what I was gonna say only nicer and more diplomatic like. I shudder to think how much I thought I knew when I was in my 20's........... ;-)

Nick

I hear ya,
But in my response to that.. even though this is off topic.. and I have the utmost respect for those in the industry who have been working for a long time...

I think young guys have alot of creativity and can problem solve situations that arent necessarily "text book"
where as alot of the older guys (no one here of course)
are set in their ways. hence.. attitude towards new gear.

But Nick, I do see your point