Support the new laws!!!

[Steve Sherrick]

Well, someone better come up with a good way to deal with piracy soon because these conversations are happening at the highest level on a daily basis across the entertainment industry and there isn't a whole lot of optimism from what I can tell. It's translating into smaller budgets, less risks, and less jobs. It doesn't help that we're also in a bad economy. Unless we want to see filmmaking, music, and other forms of entertainment turn into a hobby, we need some smart solutions. The industry needs to adapt, it needs to figure out a successful business model in an age where moving media around is very easy. Wish I was smart enough to come up with the solution. I will say, history has shown the industry has survived other challenges. So it is somewhat resilient.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

content has been stolen since the middle ages.. paintings have been counterfeit, vhs tapes have been copied, cd's duplicated, mp3's shared, movies filmed and released either on dvd or internet.. its going to happen no matter what, yet we still seem to be doing quite alright in the biz...

I dont know.. can of worms.. bottom line.. FINE if they want to try and figure something out.. then ok.. but not this law.. this law gets too deep.
plus.. whatever, ends up happening is just a barrier that most people will get over anyways.. there is NO stopping counterfeiting. it will never die. just slow down for a lil bit till they figure something else out.

There is topping it. Google proved they could ban certain searches when they banned political content in China. Why is it that if you search many software the illegal torrent appears ABOVE the legal purchase site. They need to be held accountable. This law is part of that. Google is not a content creator, they are a corporation built entirely on leeching other people's work.

Yes there has been counterfeiting in the past, but never before on this huge a scale. You cannot compare bad VHS copies in a flee market that many people did not even know where to find to PirateBay The other comparison I always hear is "we used to tape songs off the radio" Again no comparison in ease of use, quality of copy, etc.

Drastic measures need to be taken. Ideas cannot have a value of zero, and many other types of information NEED to also be controlled - this includes weapons tech, military strategy briefs, child porn, stolen credit card numbers and so on. Living in society means that certain information has to be controlled.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Draconian legislation will not solve a broken business model.
Litigating your customers will not solve a broken business model.
Imposing thousands of dollars of fines and imprisoning your customers will not solve a broken business model.

The idea that current business model, having evolved from the days of limited means of production and distribution, can survive in this modern technologically advance age... IS A MYTH.

Again this cliche of a broken business model. What is another model? How is money supposed to come in to pay salaries of those who work on films? I suppose we should all be untrained hobby guys posting videos of our daughters on Vimeo, or have rich parents. Advertising does not exactly promote free flow of information either. Ever have to sit down to a sponsor meeting? Let me tell you, if they sell fast food, your healthy thin main character had better be a regular at their chain, etc. Any voice crtitical of the offerings of major corps will be mostly silenced if advertising is the only way to get something made. With such complex conglomerates there is always someone's product you are not allowed to mock or disparage. No more "Thank You For Smoking". No more anti-war films.

And by the way, someone who steals from you and helps others steal is not a "customer". A customer pays for your services. I'm sure if you stole from the supermarket they would not refrain from calling the police because you were a "customer".

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well, someone better come up with a good way to deal with piracy soon because these conversations are happening at the highest level on a daily basis across the entertainment industry and there isn't a whole lot of optimism from what I can tell. It's translating into smaller budgets, less risks, and less jobs. It doesn't help that we're also in a bad economy. Unless we want to see filmmaking, music, and other forms of entertainment turn into a hobby, we need some smart solutions. The industry needs to adapt, it needs to figure out a successful business model in an age where moving media around is very easy. Wish I was smart enough to come up with the solution. I will say, history has shown the industry has survived other challenges. So it is somewhat resilient.

The worst part is less risk. So many cool little films saw the light of day in the 1990s because you didn't need to be a huge blockbuster to recoup your smaller budget, all you needed was a modestly OK DVD run. Now that is mostly gone, and in its place is this non existent "new business model" everybody keeps telling us about. The model that failed to save newspapers, failed to save huge swaths of the software business, etc. Why did it fail? Because imaginary money does not pay the bills.

Much as I thought Avatar was cool, it would be very sad to me if that and sequels were the ONLY type of film that was made from now on.

If this law passes, watch the slow return of money for small, risky, truly innovative films.

 

[PatrickW]

Spoken like someone who does not make a living off copyrighted content. Probably you give your "work" away for free as a hobby in Vimeo, if you do any film work at all.

I thought this was a pro forum.

That said, again this cliche of a broken business model. What is another model? How is money supposed to come in to pay salaries of those who work on films? I suppose we should all be untrained hobby guys like you, or have rich parents.

And by the way, someone who steals from you and helps others steal is not a "customer". A customer pays for your services. I'm sure if you stole from the supermarket they would not refrain from calling the police because you were a "customer".

Comparison of the "theft" of intangible products and real things is not simple. Your marketbase (customers) understands that but you do not. Digital broke the media business model.

While the business side of big media benifits from piracy in terms of market research. Yes the big studios track what people download, and use that data to make money. Then they go ahead and fine and imprison people for "sharing" files.

The business of media has not evolved with the technology that is so vital to the industry, but most importantly the industry has not kept up with what consumers actually want.

 

[Johnny St.Ours]

Arrest everybody who's ever downloaded something illegal, several thousand- even better, arrest everybody who's done so without even knowing it. While at it, let's get thought crimes instated (Orwell came up with these how many decades ago- come on INTERPOL, catch up!). Great ideas, maybe between the video pirates, bad-thinkers and petty pot dealers, we can make sure that murderers and rapists don't get any room at the jailhouse inn. And once they're in there, damn it, we'll MAKE 'em buy our dribble!

I support my local video rental place- costs me a hell of a lot more than Netflix would (to which, am I the only non-member?)- but I know I'll be a Netflix, or whatever-Flix customer soon enough- there simply won't be DVDs a few years of internet bandwidth advancements from now. Sorry video rental shops, nothing is going to save you.

All this is only a problem to anybody whose glass is half empty, whether that person be in motion picture, music, print media, or... anything. But there are opportunities, new frontiers. Since the dawn of man, we've sought things to enrich our lives, sought the exchange of stories, and in spite of our outward appearances, I believe we've even sought common good for our fellow man. That means there's a Demand for art, and to exchange for art. If we applied some of our creativity and fortune (we're artists, right?) to these issues, they're not too far from working out into a whole new set of possibilities. Maybe we'll lose record stores and video rental shops, but we'll come out way ahead so long as we don't just plop on our asses and whine about change.

And Laws!? Big ass incredible fine laws that you don't know you're breaking!? There is no way to stop people with fear. Attempting to do so might cause serious repression, and in the end, birth some new and even more powerful force of counter culture. You go put somebody in jail for watching your movie for free, and when the poor bastard gets out, having lost his job, his family, and his future, he oughta go find the jerk who ratted him out and steal his whole fancy camera rig and tell a real story with it- and you can bet he'll stream that shit for free.

Take it easy, that's all. When cassette tapes came out, the industry flipped- suddenly the proletariat could make their own dupes without a vinyl press. Just think how much money has been made since then? I'd bet it's more than had been made on the music 'industry' in all the years of music prior, added together. So what if there's a lull right now? Let's chill and collect ourselves.

As far as these laws bringing money back to independent filmmakers- no way! Face it, everybody goes to the internet to see shit now, it's the proverbial fireside gathering. These laws will make it scary for viewers to look for stories. They'll go to the trusted sites with the trusted logos only. iTunes, etc. Making an independent film will become like making a tool company that's not named DeWalt and trying to sell it at Lowe's. I think the very shallowest independent filmmaker, the least conscious of the future, of the people, of the necessity to have open exchange, the filmmaker with the least focus on just telling their story, will be the independent filmmaker who supports these laws.

I'm much more worried about the opposite. That half billion dollar Avatar is going to ruin our game. That's some big money, and if that shit keeps up, us 2d storytellers are gonna end up with the thespians at the community theater, serving our wares to a stalwart, sub-cultural crowd- know any big shot producers who want to get behind that? And to be clear: not because of piracy (at least not what is being referred to here as piracy)- because of mega bucks made on a pop-gimmick movie.

 

[Johnny St.Ours]

And in all the time it took me to write that shit, RedRushes only got 2% of the video I set it after... now if somebody would just buy some DVDs, I could get a Qmaster suite and a Red Rocket...

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

...to crack down on piracy..

Good luck against the Cloverfield monster.

 

[Craig Ryan]

I'm against Piracy as much as the next guy but the current approach isn't moral or working.

You want to teach someone a lesson, send them a $50 ticket. Send them one every month.

You don't fight invasive piracy at the user level with $100k fines. You fight it by hitting everyone who breaks the law with a small fine.

Think about it. Would you risk parking on the street without putting money in the meter? I've been hit twice this month. (Only once my fault though). I'm going to be EXTRA careful going forward. My fear of piracy enforcement? Somewhere around 0.

Completely agree.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

One major piracy issue seems to be availability. In the Netherlands, there is practically NO legal download service. My guess is that the same is true for a lot of other countries.

If there is demand but no legal supply, someone or something will fill the void. Legislation, especially something as horrific as acta, will not fix the problem.

If there is one thing Unites States content providers should do first is not try to shove Acta through the world (most provisions are Dutch law, piracy is rampant anyway...) is force local distibutors to actually distribute in a 2010 way.

And the small fines sound like a grand plan. If the fine is just a couple of times the price of the legal content, it'll feel far more reasonable to just buy.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

also... not condoning this, but pirates can easily block isp's from tracking them.. so if people want to steal.. they will still steal..

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Again this cliche of a broken business model. What is another model? How is money supposed to come in to pay salaries of those who work on films?

Look at ZunePass. That is how. But more expensive.

I don't pirate films but I only buy a film a month (I did go on a 50 film spree last year in one month but on average...)

By comparison I only bought about 1 album per year. Regardless of piracy prior to a Zune pass. Now I spend $15 a month and tend to buy an extra album on top of that. It's increased my purchasing by at least 10-20x.

And when you think about failing to pay parking is actually worse than piracy. While a pirate might have purchased the product someone almost certainly would have used the space. So you're not only failing to pay you're also denying them income for their property from others who are willing to pay. Over a $5 parking space we don't however throw people who "steal" parking spaces into jail. We charge them $50 and send them along their way.

Another fun fact. This is how crazy piracy legislation is. If I literally steal a CD and walk out of a store with it in my pocket I will face a fine of $350 and 1 day of community service!!!!! 1 DAY! If I download that CD off of the internet I can face in excess of several million dollars and years in prison.

 

[David Rasberry]

I'm not in favor of any law that will give large corporations more power to control what we see and hear, pirated or not. It's bad enough as it is and the internet is the only place where there is any real freedom of effective public expression left. There is already some fear driven censorship by ISP's for situations where fair use practices should apply. Posting or sharing very short clips or excerpts from a TV show for instance.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I just want people to see my stories and ideas, and wouldn't really mind how it gets to them. Now that being said it would only work as long as I could continue making a living and make more movies. For me this is about the joy and passion I have for films and storytelling in general.

But then again I'm just speaking as a student who has not yet been beaten down and had to compromise his values yet so.... we'll see.

having your TV stolen sucks, but when someone loves your music or art so much that they go to such an extent to steal it that's another thing all together. Now the people stealing aren't normally the fans, but the reason they have a business (if you can call it that) is because of the love and popularity of a certain movie or show or song.

I guess you can't just ignore this stuff but you should never let it get in the way of making your art or doing your work.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I guess you can't just ignore this stuff but you should never let it get in the way of making your art or doing your work.

I'm inclined to agree with you, however film making is a rather money intensive operation. Being broke can be a huge impediment to making your art.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Main problem is distribution. The world is global these days, but the distribution is still regional.

That's why we on the other side of the pond are tempted in downloading/ streaming films/ series that is showing in the US. We don't want to wait 1 to 2 years for them. Our knowledge about them is their instantly as it has showed in the US. The days of us wanting to wait is over as the content is to great and the info on it is to easy to obtain.

Only way to survive is to make it global immediately. Look at Avatar - there's no coincidence Cameron released in every theatre on the planet at one and the same time. I understand that it's a week example considering they could afford that risk of doing so, but if I had the possibility of paying for an HBO internet channel showing me their stuff I would.

If I could download the film immediately as it lands on iTunes I would, but I can't because I'm not in the same region. Even some music is not released in every region at the same time??? So only way of getting it at the same time would be to download illegally.

Only way of fighting this is to become internet and realise that the world is global these days. Yes it will mean that costs of selling television series will be different but then that has to be taken into account when selling?

Personally I think it will be easier to establish yourself as a worldwide internet TV channel and make subscribers for it.

Apple TV is starting to be popular outside of US as people learn how to "crack" the non us citizen ban. As we manage to buy shows and films from the US store - we want to start using it as well. Right now for example Apple TV is pretty useless outside US and possibly UK (even though that is weak as well).

When I did a 2 month stretch in the US last year I watched Hulu all the time. It was great. I could watch the shows when I had the time. I would gladly pay for that, especially if it doesn't matter where in the world I am.

So only way of solving this is releasing the content worldwide AT THE SAME time as they start laws etc. Otherwise it all will backfire

So global market is IMO the answer

 

[PatrickW]

Main problem is distribution. The world is global these days, but the distribution is still regional.

That's why we on the other side of the pond are tempted in downloading/ streaming films/ series that is showing in the US. We don't want to wait 1 to 2 years for them. Our knowledge about them is their instantly as it has showed in the US. The days of us wanting to wait is over as the content is to great and the info on it is to easy to obtain.

Only way to survive is to make it global immediately. Look at Avatar - there's no coincidence Cameron released in every theatre on the planet at one and the same time. I understand that it's a week example considering they could afford that risk of doing so, but if I had the possibility of paying for an HBO internet channel showing me their stuff I would.

If I could download the film immediately as it lands on iTunes I would, but I can't because I'm not in the same region. Even some music is not released in every region at the same time??? So only way of getting it at the same time would be to download illegally.

Only way of fighting this is to become internet and realise that the world is global these days. Yes it will mean that costs of selling television series will be different but then that has to be taken into account when selling?

Personally I think it will be easier to establish yourself as a worldwide internet TV channel and make subscribers for it.

Apple TV is starting to be popular outside of US as people learn how to "crack" the non us citizen ban. As we manage to buy shows and films from the US store - we want to start using it as well. Right now for example Apple TV is pretty useless outside US and possibly UK (even though that is weak as well).

When I did a 2 month stretch in the US last year I watched Hulu all the time. It was great. I could watch the shows when I had the time. I would gladly pay for that, especially if it doesn't matter where in the world I am.

So only way of solving this is releasing the content worldwide AT THE SAME time as they start laws etc. Otherwise it all will backfire

So global market is IMO the answer

Distribution is a problem easily solved with digital IP distribution.

Another serious problem, is that online content is availible globally: but many advertizing deals are regional. However, this again may soon be a thing of the past using technology to solve the problem. Put a green screen in your finished product and you can slip in regional banner ads, or even target the ads to individual viewer. This is what could pay for the future of free online content.

 

[Kevin Olsen]

Not that I condone pirating, but you have to admit, there is an extreme incentive to pirate vs pay for a DVD/Blu-ray. Until market penetration for streaming access for movies at a reasonable price is established, people will continue to pirate content.

Got this from somewhere, sorry I don't know the original source:

 

[ericyoung]

Not that I condone pirating, but you have to admit, there is an extreme incentive to pirate vs pay for a DVD/Blu-ray. Until market penetration for streaming access for movies at a reasonable price is established, people will continue to pirate content.

Got this from somewhere, sorry I don't know the original source:

Too true unfortunately! :lol:

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Look at ZunePass. That is how. But more expensive.

I don't pirate films but I only buy a film a month (I did go on a 50 film spree last year in one month but on average...)

By comparison I only bought about 1 album per year. Regardless of piracy prior to a Zune pass. Now I spend $15 a month and tend to buy an extra album on top of that. It's increased my purchasing by at least 10-20x.

And when you think about failing to pay parking is actually worse than piracy. While a pirate might have purchased the product someone almost certainly would have used the space. So you're not only failing to pay you're also denying them income for their property from others who are willing to pay. Over a $5 parking space we don't however throw people who "steal" parking spaces into jail. We charge them $50 and send them along their way.

Another fun fact. This is how crazy piracy legislation is. If I literally steal a CD and walk out of a store with it in my pocket I will face a fine of $350 and 1 day of community service!!!!! 1 DAY! If I download that CD off of the internet I can face in excess of several million dollars and years in prison.

Well some harder to catch and/or prosecute crimes have higher penalties because they need a larger deterrent to compensate against longer odds. If the odds were better of catching people they would lower the penalties. In France you must get caught 3 times (which they do easily as there these laws are already in use to some degree) and then you are barred from having an Internet account in your name.

That said, the debate here is not about criminal penalties, but about whether the state has the right to curtail illegal activities over the Internet. I say they must. The cost of living in a civilized society is that we must forgo certain freedoms so that we can all get along in a context that is not utter chaos.

Zune is interesting, but I would not say it's really a new model at a core level. It is still people paying for content to the correct person, not to Pirate Bay for looking at their ads. For Zune to work better illegal downloading must be, in fact illegal in a meaningful way. That way can only exits if mechanism to catch people are there.

There are other things at play here, and these include the needed stigmatization of downloading that will come from it being something you could actually, really get caught for. A real crime.

The other thing is the laxing of general morality that comes when everyone is a thief. The Broken Window Principle at a societal rather than urban level.

Another point rarely discussed is who is really behind promoting piracy. Some research shows that the money behind piracy and defending the likes of Pirate Bay are extreme right groups who do not like Hollywood for various reasons, and would like its relatively independent voice to be silenced.

You see, even if Fox news was not making money, there would still be a Fox News, but I'm not sure films like "Milk" and "Thank You for Smoking" would get made anymore..