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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Suggestions for improving RED

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najafi/didarfilm

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Hi REDs

although RED would be the best solution , but i have some idea to improve it:

1- Mechanical Shutter :the thing that DoPs like it so much , becouse it's their sole immediate connection to the natural raw image. VIPER and DALSA have it.
2- Bayar Pattern : it has been proven that Bayar Pattern is not a good equivelant for developer liquid , we would encounter real problems and artifacts transcoding the image by Bayar Pattern.
3- Higher Frame Rates : although 60fps in full resolution is acceptable for high-speed cinematography but it's compeletly clear that cinematographers would require it so soon , and we would see them after having RED that are working in 35mm just becouse of frame rate.

thanks
hossein najafi
 
I'm not pestering anyone but with so many 'how to improve RED' posts out there I suggest we wait to see what the guys come up with before we start asking for improvements.

The whole RED team have done a sterling job, taking a dream and turning that into a reality (almost). For what they have achieved at this stage deserves a massive dose of gratitude and thanks. Taking on this venture was an open invitation to failure but they are a determined bunch who's collective skills and knowledge reflect the very leading edge of imagery acquisition and workflow protocols.

I would imagine at this stage in the game there is hardly any space left to even contemplate too many changes in the final appearance / ability of RED. So whilst some of the points raised in the past few weeks may be valid and have credibility I would like to suggest we all just get behind the guys as they get into the back straightaway and cheer them on even harder, positive feedback for a positive result.

Cheers,
Mark.

P.S I'm sure Jim and the gang will be open to building in all the extras people have suggested in RED ONE 1.0.1. That is of course once they have released their Ultra Primes range of glass for both 2K and 4 K formats, shipped all the complimentary hats out to the REDCORE and decided on the winner of the RED T-shirt design competition .......... uh ohhh, do I hear the gauntlet falling??
 
Exactly. We need to wait for RED to ship before we start thinking of ways to improve it.

Personally, I'm thrilled. Without RED, I would be staring at a Sony XDCAM system or a used Varicam as my purchase options. Instead, I'm being presented with the ability to shoot 2K/4K 4:4:4 -- 2K at up to double the FPS of Varicam. All on a full 35mm sensor (vs. 2/3" of those other cameras).
 
If RED ships before some important things are addressed it would be a shame. RED has found this forum useful because of the input people give (Just in the last few days Stuart was asking for input and preferences on audio gain pots). Red has mentioned many times that the input they have recieved from us has helped further the development of the camera the whole way. Even right now it is stated that nothing about the camera is set in stone yet. I think it is very important for people to express their ideas and concerns here and no one should try and supress these thoughts. If the idea sucks the RED team will scan over it and toss it out or not respond. If it is a great idea though there is a good chance it will benifit all of us.

All this said I don't find anything Najafi mentions to be anything that RED is not already trying to incorporate or can not because of the 17.5k price point. I am on the other hand thankful that Najafi feels comfortable to post his thoughts and ideas because it could easily be a big suprise who comes up with a brilliant idea.
 
Good points Finner,
I, as everyone, want to see the all singing all dancing RED ONE start shipping on time and to a happy audience. I also believe that there is also a very true cut off time with regards to the development of RED in order for the team to start bolting everything down, getting the final tests done and realizing their delivery deadlines.

Personally I believe the time now should be spent in positive encouragement to all involved in the hope that the final product will live up to all our expectations. If the team do decide to take on something posted here at whatever time as a design feature then I applaud them for their balls in doing so.

Regards,
Mark.
 
I am sure there will be a cut off time as all areas of design and engineering become finished. I figure the RED team will do a very good job knowing when that will be. I don't think they need us to tell them when that should be.
 
Finner said:
If RED ships before some important things are addressed it would be a shame. RED has found this forum useful because of the input people give (Just in the last few days Stuart was asking for input and preferences on audio gain pots). Red has mentioned many times that the input they have recieved from us has helped further the development of the camera the whole way. Even right now it is stated that nothing about the camera is set in stone yet. I think it is very important for people to express their ideas and concerns here and no one should try and supress these thoughts. If the idea sucks the RED team will scan over it and toss it out or not respond. If it is a great idea though there is a good chance it will benifit all of us.

All this said I don't find anything Najafi mentions to be anything that RED is not already trying to incorporate or can not because of the 17.5k price point. I am on the other hand thankful that Najafi feels comfortable to post his thoughts and ideas because it could easily be a big suprise who comes up with a brilliant idea.
Click to expand...
and who will pay our bills while we'll wait for the red?.. you?..

edit
or while we wait for your red timing..
 
filmmaker's gang said:
and who will pay our bills while we'll wait for the red?.. (or for your time to go w/ red) you?..
Click to expand...

No I won't pay you! squat, jack, nada nothing.

Tell me how much will you get paid for a job that needs some features that were not incorporated in the RED?

Oh wait I think I can answer this one. Squat, Jack, Nada.

Don't be in a rush to get something that you may end up being unhappy with.

Also myself and it seems like many others here work regularly with the equipment that is on the market right now. I use ARRI, Panavision or even sometimes sony HD or Varicam so why not just do that like the rest of the pros do.

If you think just owning and having a RED is going to make you money as a profesional I think you will be very disapointed. If you are not working now I doubt highly just owning a RED will get you work.
 
Finner said:
No I won't pay you! squat, jack, nada nothing.

Tell me how much will you get paid for a job that needs some features that were not incorporated in the RED?

Oh wait I think I can answer this one. Squat, Jack, Nada.

Don't be in a rush to get something that you may end up being unhappy with.
Click to expand...

that one has my vote..



Finner said:
Also myself and it seems like many others here work regularly with the equipment that is on the market right now. I use ARRI, Panavision or even sometimes sony HD or Varicam so why not just do that like the rest of the pros do.

If you think just owning and having a RED is going to make you money as a profesional I think you will be very disapointed. If you are not working now I doubt highly just owning a RED will get you work.
Click to expand...

i'm an artist man.. (and a proud fanboy too..) no worries there.. eheheh.. i don't eat from your soup..

here is a good reading for you:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58


edit
enjoy it..
 
Let's not be too fragile here. The truth is that there are very useful ideas and not very useful ideas. Some may be considered and even implemented by RED at this late intermediate stage of development, whereas others have been discussed and discarded long ago. The trick is to move forward, and to not indulge arguments that have no pragmatic effect on RED's progress. That may involve some polite form of policing the discussion.

From Najafi's original list we know that mechanical shutter has been thoroughly considered and rejected in favour of a 720p EVF with magic focus assist, histograms, audio meters and menus galore (a fare decision IMHO). As this issue is critical to the position of the sensor I think it is a done deal. Moving on. The merits of bayar pattern; again this has been rigorously debated and Greame could offer pages of data to rebut this - but I'd rather he did not (for the 10th time) as he certainly has more pressing matters to address. Suffice is to say that bayer has served the professional still photography world very well, and the results can be seen and tested on images posted on red.com & CML.

Final point. More FPS - a good idea and one we're sure RED is doing everything in their power to implement. Compromises will occur, but this seems to be likely a feature that will improve with future releases / upgrades.

I think we owe it to RED to present our strongest and most realistic ideas without needlessly involving them in old debates. I think that participation on the level of 'the audio meters discussion' will help RED more than simple cheerleading, but that we should be careful not to waste their time. Moving forward always. I for one am kinda glad that Jim & co. are posting less these days as I'm sure that they are ankle deep in sensor guts wrestling dragons. As it should be.
 
here is an indy post.. for real and not not in disguise form..
 
some people remembers me those new converted politicians from the eastern european countries converted to the new rules of the market.. lol
 
najafi/didarfilm said:
1- Mechanical Shutter
2- Bayar Pattern
3- Higher Frame Rates
thanks
hossein najafi
Click to expand...

1) too expensive. You'll more than double the cost of the camera. But you do get the look around region, which is really nice.

2) There are no serious issues with a well reconstructed Bayer pattern image. They look great. Practically all DSLRs use this method, and their images look superb and easily win over old 35mm stills cameras. Also, there's no practical alternative for a 4k image on a S35 sized sensor. We can't use a prism and 3 chip system as then you'd not be able to use PL mount lenses as the back focus distance is all wrong. Also, I don't think it's possible to make a 3 chip system work with that size of chip. There are no full colour per-pixel chips at this size or frame rate, and indeed, that technology has it's own issues too. Bayer pattern looks fine, works fine, is practical, and has stood the test of image and time. It's also, when you understand it, seriously clever.

3) Understood - more fps is always better. (all things being equal).

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
1) too expensive. You'll more than double the cost of the camera. But you do get the look around region, which is really nice...

3) Understood - more fps is always better. (all things being equal).

Graeme
Click to expand...

Hi Graeme,

In your answer to the first point above, what do you mean by getting the "look around region"? And on point three, do you mean this (more fps) is something that you guys are considering with the initial RedOne units?
 
In an optical viewfinder, you can see what's coming into shot before it gets into the region that the film covers. Great for spotting booms and things before they get into shot. We have the same feature in 4k on down, whereby you get to see the region around the actual part of the sensor that's recording, so that you can do this also. It's a great feature.

We always consider things. We don't know the full capabilities of the hardware platform yet, so there may or may not be room for improvement. Time will tell.

Graeme
 
Graeme, there are some good arguments - by the way it´s right to think on improvements when the camera is shipping - but red could think about the strategy..
maybe it could be helpful to give certain things as option.
an optical viewfinder - many dop want to have it
an mechanical shutter - the same
more framerates - helpful in 3% of shootings.

But if you would offer these things on a double price as an option, I would change my 5 reservations to 2 normal 17.500´s and 3 with all options fitted camera.

I know that this brings a lot of logistic problems, but i am sure the demand will be good enough
 
I said double, but you could probably buy 3 RED cameras for the price of an optical viewfinder alone. I don't see that as, personally, a valid business proposition, given that we have duplicated the important thing from an OVF with the look around region, and a full 720p EVF of the quality we're offering, with the focus assist etc addresses the focus issues completely.

Graeme
 
Viewfinder / Shutter

Viewfinder / Shutter

The RED_ONE camera does not have an optical viewfinder or a mechanical shutter. No point debating that issue any more.

We have made this engineering choice for size, weight, cost and quite frankly performance reasons.

We do understand what an optical VF can provide to you, but the bottom line is - if you must have an optical VF then RED_ONE is not the camera for you.

However we also believe that this "truth" will be severely tested by our SurroundView electronic viewfinder solution.
 
Great answer Stuart!!

Graeme
 
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