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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stuttering image while Panning

Miltos Pilalitos said:
No it's not true.
I remember that my old American Cinematographer Manual (i think it was the 6th edition) even had a chapter on this. That was at least 20 years before the RED even existed.
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Hi,

It's been in the ASC Manuel for way more than 20 years, however RED seems to have a way bigger issue than 35mm film that I have been shooting for 30 years.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

It's been in the ASC Manuel for way more than 20 years, however RED seems to have a way bigger issue than 35mm film that I have been shooting for 30 years.

Stephen
Click to expand...

I would claim this for sure because I can see the same issue at almost any brand new Hollywood blockbuster for example at Dark Knight, just to neme one of the biggest.

So again my favorite question/quote is: (Stuttering?) What else?
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

It's been in the ASC Manuel for way more than 20 years, however RED seems to have a way bigger issue than 35mm film that I have been shooting for 30 years.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Hi Steven,

I have shot hours and hours of film and RED footage and yet never noticed RED to have a way bigger issue! Can you demonstrate a case where RED would stutter and film would not?

I would like to be illuminated on this issue.
 
Okay Sanjin, here's how that works in the real world -

Director : '...so in this scene I want to do some quick whip pans...'

DoP : 'Uh, okay... how quick'?

Director : 'Quick. You do know what a whip pan is?'

DoP (laughs) : 'Sure. Okay, well we can't go with this camera system as it doesn't like panning at certain speeds'.

Director : Certain speeds?

DoP : Yeah. Not so fast. I think you should do it a different way on this camera.'

Director : 'Like?'

DoP : 'Well, taking into account the cameras' panning speed, just do it slower, at a certain pace'.

Director : 'What? Are you serious? I need it quick, LIKE A WHIP PAN. BOOM. Come on. The story needs it. I need it.'

DoP : 'Uh, well like I said this camera...'

Director : 'Okay. Tell you what we'll do. Either we get another camera that can do the job at hand...'

DoP : 'But it's my camera on the job...'

Director : 'Or I get another DoP. How's that? You decide'.

Director exits meeting room in a huff. Producer takes a long hard look at the DoP. DoP ponders his future in the game.


You can't just 'educate' the director. S/he tells you what's required and the DoP tries their best to do it. Frankly, I'd rather have a bull who knows what they want and told me rather than some airy fairy idiot (god knows, there are PLENTY of those around driving crews nuts). Directors have to lead else everyone is lost. That's been my world for twenty odd years. Educate the director. What a laugh. If you ever plan on doing that, can I be forewarned and turn up with a camera to document the reaction?

Problems get solved with the application of knowledge and teamwork, not an apology that you got the wrong gear for the job. You take that tack and you won't get far in this game, I guarantee.
 
mike ogden said:
But Sanjin, you can't just tell the director 'sorry, I can only pan at x speed' because the camera won't let me go any faster! :rolleyes5:
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...So, then how does the director cope with shooting on film cameras? :rolleyes5:

To smooth out panning, you either pan slower or open up the shutter for longer exposures -- more motion blur = smoother panning = more "video look".

mike ogden said:
You can't just 'educate' the director. S/he tells you what's required and the DoP tries their best to do it.
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Sure you can. This attitude within the narrative film industry is quite tiresome. A good director knows the abilities and limitations of the tools in his toolbox; including the camera and the crew that operates it. And he's willing to accept compromises of any of the tools chosen by himself or the producer who hired him. Although the panning issue outlined here has nothing to do with the RED One. It's a 24fps cinema camera thing... The RED and other CMOS cameras tend to have a bit more stutter noticeable in some situations either due to the "rolling shutter" skew or over-processing in post that induces strobing. The latter can be blamed on the post people. The former can be compensated by opening up the shutter a bit more than you would on a film camera. Film has skew effects too, but they're much softer and more organic than the directly horizontal skew of a CMOS sensor.
 
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
...So, then how does the director cope with shooting on film cameras? :rolleyes5:

To smooth out panning, you either pan slower or open up the shutter for longer exposures -- more motion blur = smoother panning = more "video look".
Click to expand...

can you get video look with a film camera?
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
can you get video look with a film camera?
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Yes. Try an open (360) shutter. The motion doesn't look much like "film" at all. Of course, the other properties of film are still there.
 
Evin Grant said:
Could it be a PAL thing?
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That's a good question for not that many displays allow 50Hz or 100Hz refresh rates. In my experience 25p footage's strobing is less distractive or noticiable on HD TV although on a computer display it catches the eye. Have assumed it's because the TV hardware supports properly 50Hz refresh while my displays do not.
 
mike ogden said:
You can't just 'educate' the director. S/he tells you what's required and the DoP tries their best to do it.

You take that tack and you won't get far in this game, I guarantee.
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Not necessarily. Just treat it like I always treat client sessions. Be more than willing to do it but at the same time if they aren't aware of some draw backs then let them know what choices they have.

You just kindly warn them about consequences (if they're unaware of them) so that they can make informed decisions.

Director: I want a whip pan!
Dop: Just a little fair warning: we'll get strobing if I do it too fast, do you mind or would you like me to push it to the limits while still looking smooth?
Director: Don't really care about strobing in this shot just spin that sucker around as fast as you can.
DOP: No problem. Would you like me to emphasize or deemphasize the stuttering by increase or reducing the exposure time?
Director: Nope just stick to what we're using for the rest of the scene.
DoP: Done.

Part of a specialists' job is to assist the person with the vision see in their head what they're going to get and explain the various options set before them. If I hire a great dop I'm hiring their years of practical and creative experience. If I'm about to do something which conflicts with what I'm trying to achieve overall then I'm paying for their years and years of experience to raise a little red flag alerting me that I might want to consider another path.
 
Guys my post was because of shooting high speed, like 50 or 100fps where the QTs are looking not that good when the project frame rate is set to 25fps. thats the first thing. We took a long long discussion on the stuttering issue, or is it a issue? I would say it is a physically thing we and red can't change with the actual sensor. film stutters and progressive electronic cameras stutters, but its the same? no its not and it could not be the same. Why? because film is capturing a higher contrast ratio. look to the actual red reel at the end, where all hollywood people standing in front of a white wall, or just test it yourself. go into a small studio and produce a high contrast. specially if you have white background with dark forground and the camera is moving you see whats going on. at film you have same issue.... but it looks a little softer because of the nature of analog film. take red with a high contrast and not much dof and panning... look to it on a dcp and on a film out and see the difference only in the digital and analog projection. only there you will see a difference.... but i think we are limited at the moment on the physics of the sensor and it is not really possible to change it only in software.....
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
Hi Steven,

I have shot hours and hours of film and RED footage and yet never noticed RED to have a way bigger issue! Can you demonstrate a case where RED would stutter and film would not?

I would like to be illuminated on this issue.
Click to expand...

Hi Miltos,

I found 'Knowing' almost unwatchable, if I had not wanted to see the cameras performance I would have left after 5 minutes. I am talking about all movement, not just camera movement. I have seen other Red footage that looked OK so I don't know what the issue is.

Stephen
 
I just got the BluRay of Knowing and was very impressed. Are you referring to the theatrical release? Seems to be a big difference in various theaters and release prints.
 
Another workaround for your Director would be to do the pan at a proper speed and ramp that section in post. As a DP you must offer solutions to the directors demands without saying "the RED can't do this" instead maybe you can say try this solution. if only for a whip pan then it should not be noticed. . Physics are physics.
 
Stephen Williams said:
I found 'Knowing' almost unwatchable, if I had not wanted to see the cameras performance I would have left after 5 minutes. I am talking about all movement, not just camera movement. I have seen other Red footage that looked OK so I don't know what the issue is.
Click to expand...

jimhare said:
I just got the BluRay of Knowing and was very impressed. Are you referring to the theatrical release? Seems to be a big difference in various theaters and release prints.
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What can i say? I saw KNOWING at the theater and didn't notice any stuttering problems at all! And Steven says it was unwatchable because of all kinds of movement?! Wow! That's strange!

Something else strange about KNOWING was that the print i watched was slightly soft. Soft in a very un-RED kind of way...
 
Just out of curiosity does anyone even have a theory as to what *hypothetically* would cause RED to stutter more than film?

I'm coming up empty as to what would even cause a discrepancy.
 
Reduce Stutter

Reduce Stutter

mike ogden said:
But Sanjin, you can't just tell the director 'sorry, I can only pan at x speed' because the camera won't let me go any faster! :rolleyes5:
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A good director should know that if you pan too fast, the image stutters, even if you're using 35mm film. For an example of terrible stuttering, see Heaven, directed by Tom Tykwer. I don't know how it looks on DVD, but in the cinema it was unwatchable at times. He should have known better.

If you follow a moving subject, you can pan really fast, and the stuttering is not noticeable, because the subject doesn't stutter at all. The problem comes when somebody thinks that panning across the scene, with no foreground or midground subject, is a good idea. Which is rarely is. In fact, if your shot stutters, it's the Universe's way of saying you're trying to execute a really bad shot.

And - does this really need to be said again - this is not a RED issue. You get the same stutter with film at 24fps.
 
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