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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stuttering image while Panning

Another observation, Im not sure if this is the right thread to raise it. The Bokeh on some of the newer lenses looks quite 'rough' to me, certainly not to my eye as silky smooth Bokeh as a some of the classic Cooke's or Leica lenses. I know its shot dependent, but could this be adding the the subjective motion stuttering on pans.
 
G'morning Kaya. Any news? Any headway?

I've been racking my brains and I can't think of a solution. It seems strange that even after the image had been broken down into separate files (tiffs) and then reassembled into one file (uncompressed) it still stutters.

Does anyone from RED have a comment?
With hollywood blockbusters being made from R3Ds, someone must know how to get around such a basic problem.

FYI - to anyone, Kyle has a clip uploaded if you want to see for yourself. (link),
the stuttering is a different pattern on repeated plays with the occaisonal play being a smooth play all the way thru. Plays fine in VLC, not quicktime or mpegstreamclip.

I'm very keen to get to the bottom of this, as is Kaya and Kyle I am sure.
 
J Davis said:
G'morning Kaya. Any news? Any headway?

I've been racking my brains and I can't think of a solution. It seems strange that even after the image had been broken down into separate files (tiffs) and then reassembled into one file (uncompressed) it still stutters.

Does anyone from RED have a comment?
With hollywood blockbusters being made from R3Ds, someone must know how to get around such a basic problem.

FYI - to anyone, Kyle has a clip uploaded if you want to see for yourself. (link),
the stuttering is a different pattern on repeated plays with the occaisonal play being a smooth play all the way thru. Plays fine in VLC, not quicktime or mpegstreamclip.

I'm very keen to get to the bottom of this, as is Kaya and Kyle I am sure.
Click to expand...

I saw examples and referred before TO PAN SLOWER.

Those both examples anyway look to me as a sort of DV shooter fast panning.

If you would watch on a big 4K projection screen or in any theater you would get dizzy from that panning speed anyway.

Broadcasting and theater screen movie panning speeds are a bit different.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
I saw examples and referred before TO PAN SLOWER.

Those both examples anyway look to me as a sort of DV shooter fast panning.

If you would watch on a big 4K projection screen or in any theater you would get dizzy from that panning speed anyway.

Broadcasting and theater panning speeds are a bit different.
Click to expand...

you know it doesnt only happen when panning,

dolly shots, or a train passing by...and

try to say a train to move slower

again...
why does vlc player show it without the stuttering?
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
again...
why does vlc player show it without the stuttering?
Click to expand...

exactly

RED team?
anyone with something constructive to contribute?

EDIT: Kyle pointed out that it also plays smoothly within FCP as well as VLC
 
J Davis said:
exactly

RED team?
anyone with something constructive to contribute?

EDIT: Kyle pointed out that it also plays smoothly within FCP as well as VLC
Click to expand...

correct, exported qt files reimported to fcp do show fine.

so why?

but it stuttered on vimeo too.
 
This sounds to me to be a playback issue.

Play the footage in QT Player with the Movie Inspector open, and report on the frame-rate that you see.

Also, Apple programs have problems with 2:3 pulldown (introduction and removal). FCP in particular does not do it right. Could it be juddering due to poor pulldown?
 
Charles Angus said:
This sounds to me to be a playback issue.

Play the footage in QT Player with the Movie Inspector open, and report on the frame-rate that you see.

Also, Apple programs have problems with 2:3 pulldown (introduction and removal). FCP in particular does not do it right. Could it be juddering due to poor pulldown?
Click to expand...


Somebody always has to be guilty anyway, Apple, QT, RED1, etc...

BTW, VLC Player rocks,

I'm watching a lot of DVDs (and waiting for BD playback) on my Apple 30" display (2.5K) using VLC not without reason, also audio playback is gorgeous :sifone:
 
OMG... same problem here.
We made some tested today ... I'm from a PAL country and for some obvious reasons we have to use 25 fps.
I was quite frightened to see all this stuttering when panning, as well as some stuttering effect on things moving to fast in the front of the camera (such a hand)...
I look for some infos and I found this thread... I notice that a lot of people are experiencing this problem and I was quite surprised to see it this night by myself...
I have never seen such stuttering in my life (used HPX500, HPX 2100, HVX200 as well as DVX100... lol)
and I thought the camera needed a very good reset to get all the preset out or maybe something was missing on the camera on in FCP setting but after reading all those posts
I concluded that it comes from the camera ... sad... sad ...

Anyway I'll try to use 24fps for testing as well as slow shutter speed maybe different angles ,... and see what is happening then ...
We are using Master Prime By the way...
 
Strobe Effect

Strobe Effect

I have never seen such stuttering in my life (used HPX500, HPX 2100, HVX200 as well as DVX100... lol) and I thought the camera needed a very good reset to get all the preset out or maybe something was missing on the camera on in FCP setting but after reading all those posts I concluded that it comes from the camera ... sad... sad ...
Click to expand...

Two comments -

There have been multiple posts that say if you do a controlled side-by-side test between RED ONE and other cameras, the strobe effect is the same..

Yes VLC player often outperforms other media players. So it is good to have a copy of that around..
 
Strobing

Strobing

Meddy MOST said:
Some good tips or a good workaround might be usefull here.... I think
Click to expand...


I think that the message is - the tips or workarounds are the same as for any other camera when working shooting at 24 fps. i.e. control panning speed, keep a shallow DOF, avoid high contrast well defined edges in the scene (such as white window frames etc)

If all of those factors are out of your control, its going to strobe...fact of life.

But its not a unique to RED issue.
 
Thanks Stuart.

Could it be that it is only an apparent additional stutter due to how sharp Red footage it? I know, that doesn't seem to be much of a hypothesis, but like Stuart finally confirmed, there is nothing different going on here... so it is an apparent effect, not the camera.

The frames are recorded within the shutter window like in any other camera, and with the same timing as any other camera shooting the same framerate... so the only plausible concrete difference would be an aesthetic difference in the footage.

The guys worried about this who started this thread seem to have genuine concerns, and I am in no way disputing what they see. So I wonder if the lack of grain makes it "feel" more stuttery to them..?

The only other explanation, and one that seems much more likely to me, is that on a new technology, a new camera, people just look harder. Anyone would, worried because that is human nature. You work with something new = you pay attention to make sure it all works like you want it to, like you are used to.

One thing I know for a fact is that when I cut my own pans and I analyze the stutter to make sure I don't pick a take with a pan that was too fast... it jumps out at me like crazy. Yet 99% of the time when I show it to others they find absolutely nothing wrong with it. Even when comparing side to side, once you got something into your head, as anyone would, it is there to stay for a while. Even two clips with exactly the same stutter they could still feel different, because one is yours and the other isn't... you scared yourself, so now you are afraid stutter or no stutter.

I am nobody to go up against a DP, and that is the reason why I feel free to say this, because I am not going up against anyone.

I am just saying that there is no reason why Red would stutter more than any other camera... if there was then the problems would be much bigger, problems so big that they would undoubtedly be well known, and they wouldn't be in just one thread, hidden away. The whole shutter timing in red would have to be a lie. It has been quite some time now, the camera is beyond this sort of scrutinization. Trust the camera... if it looks bad then you panned too fast. If you didn't pan too fast, then it looks ok and you can trust it is only in your head.
 
Stuart English said:
There have been multiple posts that say if you do a controlled side-by-side test between RED ONE and other cameras, the strobe effect is the same..
..
Click to expand...

Hi Stuart,

Having seen Knowing in the cinema, I have never seen anything like it strobe wise. It looked really weird.

Best,

Stephen
 
We did tests for a feature a while back for strobing side by side with film and both came out the same.

Didn't see anything odd when I saw knowing. Could it be the projector you saw it on?
 
Ariana said:
We did tests for a feature a while back for strobing side by side with film and both came out the same.

Didn't see anything odd when I saw knowing. Could it be the projector you saw it on?
Click to expand...

Hi,

It was a film projector, same cinema as I saw Ben Button. I have never seen anything like it except from RED One. It will be a deal breaker for many if it's not addressed.

Stephen
 
I might be out of my league with this suggestion so please bear over with me.

First; Here is a white paper repport of a test BBC did last year to find the framerates that eliminate film/motion judder and the ability to capture fast moving objects without judder and smearing in a possible future TV standard.

The white paper both describes the reason for why motion judder happens and concludes that 300fps seems to be the necessary framerate to obtain this.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP169.pdf


It would be interesting if those that are doing panning tests could try to do the pans with high framerate. I guess 300fps would be impractical or impossible, but 120fps should be possible.
Do pans following a moving object with both very blurry background and near focused background, and panning past stationary objects that are in sharp focus, all done at various panning speeds.

To get back from 120fps to 24fps you have 96fps you have to drop. But looking at each of the 120fps, which of them would you throw out to eliminate judder?

Would it be 96 frames in equal sequence or would it be “one here and there”?
Is it enough to throw out the frames where the objects (that display the most visible judder) overlap itself partly in the next frame until you have 24 frames where there is no overlaps?
Will it sometimes be better or necessary to keep more than 24 frames (slightly slowing down) to obtain smooth judderfree movements?
Is 120fps high enough to have any good results at all? How will the different shutterspeeds affect the result?
Are there other smarter ways of doing this in post?

The goal would be to explore if there is possible to find to find a new shooting “standard” for fast pans in film that can eliminate or reduce the film/motion judder problem.

I don’t know if I manage to explain myself properly about this or if it at all will show any results, in the meantime I hope people read the BBC whitepaper and maybe someone comes up with a better test scenario, while I ………:couch: :)
 
Strobing

Strobing

It was a film projector, same cinema as I saw Ben Button. I have never seen anything like it except from RED One. It will be a deal breaker for many if it's not addressed.
Click to expand...

Umm. I recently watched Quantum of Solace on a film projection. (not a RED shoot)

I remember thinking there was a really nasty strobing effect as the camera pans past the white window frames in the casino ....

I may still have a copy of a Varicam 24fps demo QuickTime here somewhere ... maybe because of 2/3" optics, it looked like it could strobe a lot.
 
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