Studio Controls

[Billy Gedney]

I'm planning an IMAG system and the cameras I've budgeted and chosen are Fixed Scarlets (with the PRO I/O Module for HD-SDI and SYNC) [seriously cant beat it- higher than HD quality, amazing glass, all cheaper than an EX-1 (which doesn't have any Sync)].

My question is, is there going to be any way to get zoom and focus controls into the camera that can be mounted on tripod handles like with studio Cameras? A few of the cameras in the system will be operator operated, one will likely be on a head and the other will be on a doorway dolly, so there is going to have to be some form of remote control there, but- those are further off than the operator operated cameras.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Yes there will be.

 

[Billy Gedney]

Do we know if it is it going to be some standard input connector? Is it going to be third party specifically for Red? Is it going to be made by Red? I'm I going to have to sell my soul to afford them? Or is that all still to be determined?

My boss offered buying whatever camera we needed today- the same day we've gotten the big bug delay news... I cant wait. Its just cruel... I dont like to wait... Especially for something this amazing...

 

[Aaron Newsome]

There's really no way to know for sure, even if this specific information was revealed somewhere in pre-release documentation. Everything is subject to change.

However, I'd lean towards this being available from RED only. If someone has information to the contrary, this post will be surely corrected.

 

[Eric Lagerlof]

Having shot and engineered a lot of multi-cam systems for I-Mag, the need to match cameras, to be able to add long lenses (i.e. 33x up to 70x) and power/control them, to be able to use studio config kits, to remotely via a CCU various functions including color matching, pedestal and iris levels, calling up bars, being able to use the ccu cable for video return and PL(intercom), etc. etc., are all functions I would expect from cameras in an I-Mag system.

If you're situation is fixed, i.e. your shooting in the same hall/auditorium; If the distance from camera position to talent is not too great, if you can set up cameras once and the lighting doesn't change after that, then the fixed scarlet might be an ok idea. Otherwise, I'd look for camera/ccu combo's that were designed for this kind of thing.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Eric describes what I would call, an ENG type camera. I know Gibby and others have been pushing the ENG capabilities but still,... these cameras are designed with Cinema as a first thought. Everything else is an afterthought.

I think that's pretty clear with the I/O modules being an extra accessory and very expensive to boot.

 

[Billy Gedney]

Having shot and engineered a lot of multi-cam systems for I-Mag, the need to match cameras, to be able to add long lenses (i.e. 33x up to 70x) and power/control them, to be able to use studio config kits, to remotely via a CCU various functions including color matching, pedestal and iris levels, calling up bars, being able to use the ccu cable for video return and PL(intercom), etc. etc., are all functions I would expect from cameras in an I-Mag system.

If you're situation is fixed, i.e. your shooting in the same hall/auditorium; If the distance from camera position to talent is not too great, if you can set up cameras once and the lighting doesn't change after that, then the fixed scarlet might be an ok idea. Otherwise, I'd look for camera/ccu combo's that were designed for this kind of thing.

I completely agree with you as far as the CCU functionality is concerned, but from a budget standpoint, it's not realistic.

My budget would dictate that I'd either have like a EX-1 or some other prosumer camera that calls itself pro by putting an hd-sdi output (and no Genlock). So I'd rather go with a camera that knows what pedistal is and makes it adjustable, albeit not remotely, (IE: the Scarlet), or go with an EX1 which it not controllable at all.

The lens distance will work for what we're doing. I'm planning on a 5 camera setup and staging the purchases into 3 phases- 3, 1, 1- so at some point we may be ready for a camera that is interchangeable.

And we're already running clear com. Again, It isn't ideal, but the budget constrictions...

I'm hoping for enough CCU type control with the RedRemote. Tally would be rad. Return Video would be good too. I'd love a Triax configuration for the Scarlet- and it's just a matter of I/Os and a module- the system was designed to me modular. Maybe CCU type controls across WiFi? The system seems designed open enough...

IDK- I guess that's why we talk about this stuff where the engineers can see the needs of the device in the wild.

As to the designs of the camera, yes it was designed as a cinema camera, but if the capabilities exceed the design, why not meet those new markets? I understand and support focusing on the main market segment, but it'd be absolutely stupid to ignore an untapped market like the IMAG camera market.

 

[Billy Gedney]

Eric describes what I would call, an ENG type camera. I know Gibby and others have been pushing the ENG capabilities but still,... these cameras are designed with Cinema as a first thought. Everything else is an afterthought.

I think that's pretty clear with the I/O modules being an extra accessory and very expensive to boot.

I'd rather pay through the teeth for options that arn't available with the other guys. And I dont really think they're that expensive.

I can get a fixed Scarlet with HD-SDI and genlock (or trisync) for as much as an EX-1 without it... The EX-1 makes a great image, and is used to make a ton of shows, but I think most of us on this forum can agree the whole Red System is more flexible and higher quality than the Sony system in this IMAG/ENG side of the equation.

 

[Andy Jarosz]

I completely agree with you as far as the CCU functionality is concerned, but from a budget standpoint, it's not realistic.

My budget would dictate that I'd either have like a EX-1 or some other prosumer camera that calls itself pro by putting an hd-sdi output (and no Genlock). So I'd rather go with a camera that knows what pedistal is and makes it adjustable, albeit not remotely, (IE: the Scarlet), or go with an EX1 which it not controllable at all.

The lens distance will work for what we're doing. I'm planning on a 5 camera setup and staging the purchases into 3 phases- 3, 1, 1- so at some point we may be ready for a camera that is interchangeable.

And we're already running clear com. Again, It isn't ideal, but the budget constrictions...

I'm hoping for enough CCU type control with the RedRemote. Tally would be rad. Return Video would be good too. I'd love a Triax configuration for the Scarlet- and it's just a matter of I/Os and a module- the system was designed to me modular. Maybe CCU type controls across WiFi? The system seems designed open enough...

IDK- I guess that's why we talk about this stuff where the engineers can see the needs of the device in the wild.

As to the designs of the camera, yes it was designed as a cinema camera, but if the capabilities exceed the design, why not meet those new markets? I understand and support focusing on the main market segment, but it'd be absolutely stupid to ignore an untapped market like the IMAG camera market.

My high school could afford four Triax cameras with full CCU control. By time you retrofit your Scarlets with all the functionality that comes standard with an ENG camera, you'll wind up with a mess of cables and duct tape that will leave you cursing every day.

I've done with with HVXs. It's not pretty. It's not fun. It's not efficient. And it's not professional feeling. You have to realize that you're gonna be running power, clear-comm, RS232 (for control) and possibly audio for every camera, every time. If you want to monitor it remotely, you'll have to buy the (problably expensive) wireless module or run video, too. And if you want return video, that's ANOTHER cable or expensive piece of gear.

IMHO, It's just not worth it. Wait until you have enough for real ENG cameras and you won't regret it.

 

[Billy Gedney]

I'm in denial... You're right... It would be rad if they made a triax kit for it... I'm looking at the EX3 kit with the XDCA-53... Did anyone see that setup at NAB? Anyone have any other HD IMAG camera systems worth checking out?

 

[Eric Lagerlof]

Some people are offering fiber systems with adapters that attach to the sdi and remote connector at the camera end and the 'base station' at the other end that attaches to a 'paint box' , a kind of minimum CCU controller, as well as having sync and sdi connectors. I saw this with JVC 250 hi-def cameras. Whether this kind of configuration may offer you new options I don't know, but I've seen a few of these systems around and they seem to be somewhat customizable.

The EX3 is a good camera, it offers the option of changeable lenses, external genlock, hd/sdi, etc. The 8-pin remote might require a setup like I described above or a very long (and seperate) multi-pin cable. I have worked with these cable bunches- a couple of BNC's for Sync and SDI, 3 XLR's for stereo audio and ClearCom and the multi-pin for the remote controller.

I couldn't tell if there was a standard power connection between the provided lense and the camera body, if so you may be able to attach even big sports lenses to the camera, a very handy option. Check with a Sony rep on the approx. costs of configuring the EX3, including long cable runs and see what they say.

 

[Billy Gedney]

So- I brought up my question last night....

Any chance of a studio/triax/multi-pin module (and CCU/remote) to make these amazing cinema cameras studio cameras? If not, what is the plan to allow other companies to develop modules? Is there a time frame for a project along those lines?

Camera control can happen through wifi/ethernet/redmote/serial.
Way more flexible and powerful than a CCU.

But running multiple cables in a studio/ live IMAG situation can be troublesome, plus, there is no fixed return or intercom or any of those loved features of a triax system. Any way to incorporate a tally notification?

But I see your point about a CCU like controls through a computer- the ability to match the 'painted' look live is key...

HDSDI and ethernet can be multiplexed over fiber.
And audio could be sent over ethernet. There's lots
of flexibility to add capability without designing new hardware.

And there was also this-

Getting a tally back to the camera is pretty trivial - either via wireless, Ethernet or GPI contact closure.

Also- I asked about Lens control-

In keeping with my absurd desire to have you guys design a camera at the same time for a parallel market, (Studio), will there be anyway to have servo zoom and focus controls mounted on a tripod for lenses that have zoom motors?

And the reply was:

The REDmote and REDmote PRO ( as well as the Side Handle etc. ) will be able to control motors inside lenses such as Canon, Nikon, Fuji, etc... provided of course you have the accompanied electronic lens mount on the EPIC/Scarlet.

So- Discuss. What do you guys think? What systems are out there that would achieve the Fiber multiplexing? Anything that would really be worth while? Its nice to run one cable, but if you only have to run three instead (HD-SDI, Gen Lock/TriSync, Ethernet, plus what else?), you could cable from here to Japan and back 4,000 times before paying for a fiber solution.
You do lose Return video. I'll admit that.

And regarding lens control, Yay. I guess I should have asked if we will be able to run standard controls or if they are 'special'. But, I could see throwing 2/3's eng glass on the camera and just using Fujinon controls (but he did specifically say that fujinon would be supported). Maybe their servo controls will be cheaper or better for the a comparable price opposed to Fujinon's.

I'll say that at this rate, I'd give up return video to save $15,000 per camera...

I'm currently looking at a HPX500 setup- with glass and studio accessories, it is close to $26,000.