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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Strobing

Can someone do a side by side test with build 15/16 ???
So we can be sure that it was on 15 the same or not ???

would be great for the moment.....
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

To me it doesn't.

Stephen
Click to expand...

In this particular shot, if you brought the highlights down below 100% like you'd have on film, then It would look like film strobing. It looks different because the highlights are overlapping on the pan and they're really hot.

I've been through this excercise so many times with clients it's not funny anymore. This is what 24p looks like when you pan at just the right speed.
I've seen it horiz film shutters, vertical film shutters, Arri D2, genesis and other cameras shooting at 24fps.
 
Ariana said:
In this particular shot, if you brought the highlights down below 100% like you'd have on film, then It would look like film strobing. It looks different because the highlights are overlapping on the pan and they're really hot.

I've been through this excercise so many times with clients it's not funny anymore. This is what 24p looks like when you pan at just the right speed.
I've seen it horiz film shutters, vertical film shutters, Arri D2, genesis and other cameras shooting at 24fps.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I am talking about the motion, I shoot 35mm every week it looks nothing like the motion I am used to seeing.

YMMV

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I am talking about the motion, I shoot 35mm every week it looks nothing like the motion I am used to seeing.

YMMV

Stephen
Click to expand...

Same here. I've been shooting 16 and 35 since the 80s and the motion looks pretty much the same as film. However with red I find I prefer the motion at a slightly wider shutter angle because it's so clean.
 
The strobing effect on the red is nothing like 35mm film, especially when there is dark edges against light edges it stobes really badly. If I shoot 3K at 50fps(25p project) at 180 degree shutter it is very very apparent on pan and tilts on any dark against light edges. Also when shots are loaded in to redcine or scratch the shutter angle is showing up as half of what the actual shutter angle was on the camera.
At the moment it means that any shots where a dark object is against a lighter background where camera pans or tilts then the shots are unusable. Could someone from red please test this out.
 
I was at the test that Chris from 4K posted above and then I shot another test with a Build 15 Camera and a Build 16 Camera side by side to see if their was any change. I was not available to view the latest test but was told the issue is still there. From my point of view this 'judder' becomes really apparent when you project from a baselight onto a screen and it is nothing like a film panning strobe. Any part of the frame where there are verticals that have high contast like a black picture frame with a white border or a actor that has fairly hot rim light you really notice this very nasty juddering. The clip above is not as bad as some of the wider focal lengths we tried especially an 18mm panning across a room and it also seems that medium panning speeds seem to come out the worst..... when viewed on a smaller CRT it does not 'jump' out at you but if projected you really notice it... The RED is capable of some really pretty pictures but this definately something that needs to be addressed.......

Hamish
 
I just finished my 2nd red shoot, and I noticed significant strobing too in some of the shots... i was the only one though, neither the DOP/Director or the client noticed any

_ I am wondering if maybe it has to do with the scaling algoritm used?_ we downrezzed to 1080 prorez...using the "sharp" one in red redrushes (cant remember name, the second from the top)?
 
Shooting at 50 fps for a 25p project, does that mean you are overcranking 2x for a 2x slowdown in post, or are you shooting for interlaced output (50i) ?

If you are generating an interlaced output, there are several opportunities for things to go wrong during conversion and display from 50p to 50i.
 
I definitely see strong strobing/judder in my shoots as well. High contrast verticals. Doesn't even have to be a pan - just a face with enough contrast between it and the background (doesn't have to be white or blown out background) moving back and forth creates the strobing on the edges of the face.

I've had some conversation with Deanan about this - he also suggested shooting at 1/40sec to get rid of some of the more problematic strobing... But there was also some talk on the boards here at some point about strobing being more of an issue on cameras that capture a 'linear' image.

We should definitely see if we can get down to the bottom of why the images are strobing so noticeably during 'legal' movement.

Hopefully it's something that can be tweaked in the next firmware update and not something that requires different sensor technology.
 
The judder in Red is absolutely no more than any other digital camera. In fact the 35mm DOF, the non absent edge enhancement and the rolling shutter makes it a little more pleasing than other digital cameras. Film has random grains with random size and sensitivity that makes the motion blur to become unfocussed, with a digital sensor the motion blur only gets more transparent but will stay as sharp as if the object was still. Also with films random grain everything thats in focus will get a higher perceived resolution over a series of frames which creates the magical "depth", with digital one frame has the same perceived resolution as several frames which makes it more flat.
Only film can run in 24/25 fps and look really natural, unless we get a sensor with random pixels for every frame. I think that even Jim/Graham will admit that that is a very tough engineering task.

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment
 
Ok, we shot some panning tests quickly with the f23 on the stage next door comparing the same field of view and scene and dof. I'll post when I get the tape from the other guys. All of us that reviewed the footage could not see any difference.
 
All digital cameras judders more than film. If you compare different digital cameras then the MTF curve , resolution ,dynamic range, edge enhancement, color depth, shutter method/time and DOF has a part in how apparent the judder is.
My guess is with build 16 is that people use Red space which by default has more contrast then 709 and the judder seems stronger. If you lift 709 with a curve to match Red space the judder would be identical.

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment
 
Ariana said:
Ok, we shot some panning tests quickly with the f23 on the stage next door comparing the same field of view and scene and dof. I'll post when I get the tape from the other guys. All of us that reviewed the footage could not see any difference.
Click to expand...

I disagree here. I've had alot of problems with judder on F23/F950 and especially Varicam but zilch on Red. Maybe I just shoot differently with all the beautiful shallow depth of field.
 
Judder visibility

Judder visibility

I've had alot of problems with judder on F23/F950 and especially Varicam but zilch on Red. Maybe I just shoot differently with all the beautiful shallow depth of field.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with that, DOF is a big factor here and 2/3" lens based cameras will tend to show judder to a greater extent because of that.

The comments about high contrast make sense too, our eyes are designed to see just that, so adjusting Tonal Response and lowering Shutter Speed a bit may be worth evaluataing. At 24 fps you will always get judder to some extent, thats true for all cameras - 1/3, 2/3", 16 mm or 35 mm, digital or film.
 
Stuart English said:
I'd agree with that, DOF is a big factor here and 2/3" lens based cameras will tend to show judder to a greater extent because of that.

The comments about high contrast make sense too, our eyes are designed to see just that, so adjusting Tonal Response and lowering Shutter Speed a bit may be worth evaluataing. At 24 fps you will always get judder to some extent, thats true for all cameras - 1/3, 2/3", 16 mm or 35 mm, digital or film.
Click to expand...

Here's mine...
http://homepage.mac.com/powrslave/.Public/A001_C001_080309.mov
high contrast, magnified by the fact I was on a very long lens.
Un-usable unfortunately...Based on the subject matter, I was thinking of going back and reshooting at 29.97 for smoother motion.

straight up
320 @ 1/48th
 
Only the Arri D20/21 will give you a more cinematic effect, since it's mechanic shutter is working softer at the edges of the motion blur. But all electronic cameras have the problem of a very defined edge of the motion blur area, since their shutters are faster.
 
Panning

Panning

Here's mine...
http://homepage.mac.com/powrslave/.Public/A001_C001_080309.mov
high contrast, magnified by the fact I was on a very long lens.
Un-usable unfortunately...Based on the subject matter, I was thinking of going back and reshooting at 29.97 for smoother motion.
Click to expand...

Again, that's not a big surprise given the panning rate and DOF. Have you tried this test using an ASC panning speed v's focal length chart ?
 
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