Stouffer of Mysterium-X...

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Graeme, we had being in this discussion in the past...

The whole idea is to have a common point of comparison. When I measure DR I get a linear light 16bit tiff from REDtools with no curves or any "special" treatment... do it as the regular user would do, pass it through Imatest and see the result...

Its understood that even if you measure the THD of your stereo, if you put a low pass filter you will get different results in the noise levels... the point is to use the "typical end user procedure" and measure the results... is what we do with all other cameras...

So please don't tell me that the instrument has a problem, if you (intentionally or just for fun) altering the measured parameter... don't alter the parameter (native sensor noise response) that we try to measure and the instrument (Imatest) will perform as expected...

Keep up the good work that you do, I believe in your capabilities... Try not to put Oakley sunglasses when you measuring thinks... your clients will not wear them when they will use your cameras... always remember that...

Guys, Jim is giving something that none, with the exception of ARRI, has given... a DR response curve... this is very delicate information that typically its not disclosed from a manufacture... I understand that the sensor will have a better DR... how much better we will know when we will have it on our hands... we can expect a 1 to 1 1/2 stops better... but its not only that... is how these stops are distributed in the range and with what noise, that means it could get better than 1 1/2, it could be 2 stops...

Even ARRI hasn't give the noise data of the response curve, why we expect something like that from RED?

Already the steps RED team has done are big, we have to wait and see... the real ball game has just started

I wish all other manufacturers like Sony, Panasonic, Canon etc. was like RED...

 

[Jannard]

Graeme, we had being in this discussion in the past...

The whole idea is to have a common point of comparison. When I measure DR I get a linear light 16bit tiff from REDtools with no curves or any "special" treatment... do it as the regular user would do, pass it through Imatest and see the result...

Its understood that even if you measure the THD of your stereo, if you put a low pass filter you will get different results in the noise levels... the point is to use the "typical end user procedure" and measure the results... is what we do with all other cameras...

So please don't tell me that the instrument has a problem, if you (intentionally or just for fun) altering the measured parameter... don't alter the parameter (native sensor noise response) that we try to measure and the instrument (Imatest) will perform as expected...

Keep up the good work that you do, I believe in your capabilities... Try not to put Oakley sunglasses when you measuring thinks... your clients will not wear them when they will use your cameras... always remember that...

Guys, Jim is giving something that none, with the exception of ARRI, has given... a DR response curve... this is very delicate information that typically its not disclosed from a manufacture... I understand that the sensor will have a better DR... how much better we will know when we will have it on our hands... we can expect a 1 to 1 1/2 stops better... but its not only that... is how these stops are distributed in the range and with what noise, that means it could get better than 1 1/2, it could be 2 stops...

Even ARRI hasn't give the noise data of the response curve, why we expect something like that from RED?

Already the steps RED team has done are big, we have to wait and see... the real ball game has just started

I wish all other manufacturers like Sony, Panasonic, Canon etc. was like RED...

Thanks for this post... I need Graeme to get back to the dungeon now.

Jim

 

[Shane Peel]

Click … boom

Click … boom

Everyone … shhh if you listen closely you can hear that last few breaths that film will draw and at the same time the first few breaths that a whole slew of new film makers that are not going to be restricted by economics are sucking up.
Imagine the ability to shoot late afternoon verge of darkness subtlety under-lit light, you know the stuff you can see but NEVER quite convey. DR is the key to crossing the gap between what we see and what we can record. EPIC!:thumbup:
PS. ANY recording device will get results in perfect light, the low light is the battle field Air-Marshall Janard needs to direct his ordinance at and I reckon this chart is the first bomb landing!

 

[Chris Parker]

This is fantastic news. I am curious as to how the highlights will hold.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Looking at the chart what it looks like is happening is the sensor is a little non-linear in its low end response. So more of the shadow information is staying up above the noise floor. Then I presume an internal LUT based on the sensor characterization work being done pushes that back into a perfectly linear output.

But that's still a little misleading to say you have 1.5 additional stops of 'dynamic range'? If I hit black at EI 0 and white at EI 12 isn't that 12 stops. Completely independent of noise and quality of image. You have 12 stops of dynamic RANGE. Even if it is 1.5 stops faster. You might not have wanted to use that last 2/3 stop before because it was too noisy. But it's not new.

 

[Felix K.]

So, as I cannot really get my head around how these charts are produced* I simply trust Jim's and his team's observations: M-X will be better than M.

*)I'd need a kind of SesameStreet approach, maybe Grover-style...

Btw.: My webcam has about 2 stops... per conversation...

 

[Tim Sutherland]

Keep in mind that you are going to have a very very hard time finding any type of display that can show more than 7 stops of range at a given time. You are never going to plug a camera into a monitor and see 12 stops. Or go to a theater and see 12 stops. Thats just the range that is on the negative (digital, or film), the whole trick with lighting is how do you work with the latitude of the capture medium, and the display medium, and get the image you want out of it.

Just my opinion, I'm in a room full of guys smarter than me ;-)

Nick

I definitely agree. The other part of this is what you have to do as a cinematographer, is to figure out how you're going to use the higher number of stops you get in your negative or Redcode into the lower number of stops in your Positive film print or Rec 709 video (for most uses of HD output).

Distinguishing what you can capture from what you can display is a very important part of understanding dynamic range.

 

[Thomas Mark Schaefer]

Practical implications?

Practical implications?

...There's no sharp change from noise-free to noise-floor. It's a continuum, but it starts later than in Mysterium, and doesn't get as noisy.

Graeme

I think I understand that the DR is the difference between the darkest blacks that can show detail and the lightest whites before the detail is lost in flare. But what about the seperation of shades that are pretty close to eachother?

My wife and I are going to shoot some gun porn glamour shots, Matrix-like, of us in our long black leather coats, her thigh-high leather boots, our AR-15s, and our Glock. Everything will be pretty dark, except for a wet concrete background which will be light grey by comparison. We don't want our caucasian heads to flare (wouldn't mind some leather and gun barrel glints though).

Will the increased DR of the Mysterium-X help us seperate the blacks in all of this?

Thanks