Stop Sulking

[antiquaeuropa]

Red's Focus?

Red's Focus?

RED is not Panasonic or Sony. It should not be their intent to sell "shit-loads." They will sell loads of Scarlet, just as many if not more, with the mount and option for interchangeability of lenses.

Right again. I hate that Red is shifting its focus into this dumbed down area of video. I thought that they pioneering "Digital Cinema." Of course, it will be a great value for the money, and very likely it will sell well. But what will Red focus on? Well now it is not clear. Instead of getting their camera that "renders obsolesce obsolete" totally right they are off in prosumer la-la land. Sure they can do it better than the others if they want, but why? Is the area even worth much time or talent going into it? Sony does it for money. Why is Red doing it? What sort of moving stuff are you guys planning on shooting with Scarlet? I would be surprised if someone makes a decent feature film with it.

 

[David Dennis]

Supergrafx, Scarlet is a mid-priced camera at best, something a person with an average income could reasonably aspire to.

If you think Scarlet is an expensive camera that you can barely afford, you should be very happy it was designed as it was, because interchangeable lenses probably would have brought the price up to at least $5k. Add $2,000 worth of lenses and you're looking at a lot of money for someone in your position.

If you can afford more, you might consider that in a year or so Jim will have trade-in RED ONEs that he might wind up selling at an advantageous price to people like you. As you know, he has more than a few customers for which money means next to nothing, and who will immediately upgrade to EPIC five minutes after Jim starts selling it.

People have made wonderful, gripping films using MiniDV equipment, with lenses hardwired to the camera. We love to make our films beautiful, so of course we upgrade to the latest and greatest, but I'm not sure if audiences care that much.

I plan to buy Scarlet, assuming it winds up at or close to its rumored price point. I'll bet you could create great stuff with it if you got over the idea, often seen on this forum, that equipment dictates results. It can make your films look better, but in the final analysis your plot and actors are what really matters. If you get them right people will forgive you if you use a 1CCD MiniDV camera.

D

 

[Luis de la Cerda]

With 3 Megapixels in such a small sensor AND a 2.8 lens, scarlet will have to go back in the bag many hours before my "crappy" HDV cameras begin to feel light starved. Doesn't sound too promising, I'm sorry.
I also smell a lens range way too telephoto at it's widest range to be able to cover 8x. I'd much prefer a 2x or 1.5x really wide lens, but then again, since the lens will be fixed, I'll probably won't get what I need, neither stock nor as an option. (And I've never EVER seen a good wide adapter, meaning rectilinear, sharp, with little or no CA and good flare control) What good is a really small camera that you can stick in a very small space if you FOV will be narrower than if you had used a full size camera with a really wide lens?
None of those 2 aspects sounds "profesional" to me.

 

[Tom Lowe]

The moaning in these forums is truly breathtaking. Buy it or don't buy it, but for God's sake $3K? That's extraordinary value and if it means a fixed lens then that's fine. RED are going to sell shitloads of these.

That's not how it works at this forum. "Buy it or don't buy it" is what Sony and other huge corporations give us. Here, Red actually listens to our suggestions, concerns, and input, and then, if they agree, they make changes to the cameras.

 

[Buck Forester]

RED is not Panasonic or Sony. It should not be their intent to sell "shit-loads."

I think Jim has the say what their "intent" should or should not be. Some of us are excited about this Scarlet, so you might think it shouldn't be RED's intent to make such a product, and I'm glad Jim thinks it should be. That's all. It's all good. The more profitable RED is as a company, the better we are for it too.

 

[Gabriel Winebrenner]

Supergrafx, Scarlet is a mid-priced camera at best, something a person with an average income could reasonably aspire to.

If you think Scarlet is an expensive camera that you can barely afford, you should be very happy it was designed as it was, because interchangeable lenses probably would have brought the price up to at least $5k. Add $2,000 worth of lenses and you're looking at a lot of money for someone in your position.

If you can afford more, you might consider that in a year or so Jim will have trade-in RED ONEs that he might wind up selling at an advantageous price to people like you. As you know, he has more than a few customers for which money means next to nothing, and who will immediately upgrade to EPIC five minutes after Jim starts selling it.

People have made wonderful, gripping films using MiniDV equipment, with lenses hardwired to the camera. We love to make our films beautiful, so of course we upgrade to the latest and greatest, but I'm not sure if audiences care that much.

I plan to buy Scarlet, assuming it winds up at or close to its rumored price point. I'll bet you could create great stuff with it if you got over the idea, often seen on this forum, that equipment dictates results. It can make your films look better, but in the final analysis your plot and actors are what really matters. If you get them right people will forgive you if you use a 1CCD MiniDV camera.

D

Jim is offering the full amount of the Red One's $17,500 base price for a trade in for an Elite. As nice as this is to previous Red One owners, and this is nice, very nicer, actually nicer than I could ever be, used Red OneZ will still be in high demand at that point, so the body's price, I could imagine could be 14k to 15k, and that is used. The 5k difference, is not too much a deterrent to make the Red One unwanted and Red knows this. They might take a 2 grand loss in selling an Elite, but in no way will they be loosing money, as they are selling Elites and gaining new customers with used Red One bodies that will need the extra $15,000 in extra gear to just get started. Not to mention, that many of these used models will be coming from rental houses. Rental gear gets banged up. I should know, I neglected a lot of rental stuff myself. It was all insured and corporate so there was less value in something that you earned for yourself from slave labor.

I'll pay 5k for a Scarlet with the given improvements. Hell, I'll pay 8 thousand if the improvements are up to par with 35mm as in the Red One model. Beats $17,500. I agree that 3k resolution is as good as I need right now. Man, I could settle for 2k with the options parallel with the Red One's performance. But I know, resolution alone does not make a film. I am looking for Red One's little sister, not his inbred mistake. But like I said, if I wanted to pay 3k for a camera that didn't perform to cinematic expectations, I would go Japanese. I have nothing against the Japanese. Hell, my first wife was Japanese. I liked her so much that I married her when I was 19 so she could stay in the country and please me. But that's the past. I am a totally new person now. I prefer quality as much in a camera as in an individual.

 

[antiquaeuropa]

People have made wonderful, gripping films using MiniDV equipment, with lenses hardwired to the camera.
D

Give me your top 3, please.

 

[Bing Bailey]

to be honest while I went a little batty about the whole epic thing. I have no complaints about scarlet. guys red just gave you a camera better than f23 with a lens for 3k. no doubt the lens will be great

 

[antiquaeuropa]

I am looking for Red One's little sister, not his inbred mistake.

Haha! :biggrin: Me too!

Why do you guys think that your final products with Scarlet are going to be so much better than the Japanese alternatives selling today?

 

[kmikami]

Give me your top 3, please.

Dancer in the Dark
Festen
Bamboozled
The Idiots
The Cruise
Julian Donkey Boy
etc.

 

[kmikami]

Why do you guys think that your final products with Scarlet are going to be so much better than the Japanese alternatives selling today?

What $3000 camera can I buy today that records RAW 24p footage to solid state media at 1080 resolution or better?

 

[antiquaeuropa]

What $3000 camera can I buy today that records RAW 24p footage to solid state media at 1080 resolution or better?

How exactly is recording to solid state going to show up in the picture?

Sure Red Code Raw is better, but just how much a difference do you think that your audience will see? That is a minimal part of the difference between cheap video and Hollywood compared to the vastly different depth of field.

Actually there are many cameras that do solid state 24p at 1080p for under $1300, but they are RAW so I won't bother listing them.

 

[Gabriel Winebrenner]

What $3000 camera can I buy today that records RAW 24p footage to solid state media at 1080 resolution or better?

If that's all you need in a cinematographer's piece of equipment, Best Buy might have one, and if not, you could try Circuit City or Fry's......

 

[Kyle Hance]

Right again. I hate that Red is shifting its focus into this dumbed down area of video. I thought that they pioneering "Digital Cinema." Of course, it will be a great value for the money, and very likely it will sell well. But what will Red focus on? Well now it is not clear. Instead of getting their camera that "renders obsolesce obsolete" totally right they are off in prosumer la-la land. Sure they can do it better than the others if they want, but why? Is the area even worth much time or talent going into it? Sony does it for money. Why is Red doing it? What sort of moving stuff are you guys planning on shooting with Scarlet? I would be surprised if someone makes a decent feature film with it.

Since when is 3K not digital cinema? If I'm not mistaken, most, if not all, digitial cinemas project in 2K.......... And, yeah, it has a fixed lense..... So what? I would be PSYCHED to have a Scarlet. RAW 3K @ up to 120 FPS for $3k! That's INCREDIBLE! Stop whining! So, the Scarlet's not for you. It is for a bunch of other people. Go get yourself a freakin' Red ONE and shut-up.

If that's all you need in a cinematographer's piece of equipment, Best Buy might have one, and if not, you could try Circuit City or Fry's......

Try.... NONE OF THOSE. You cannot find a video camera that even shoot's RAW at any of those places. Yes, you can find cameras that shoot 1080p @ 24 FPS. But none with RAW.

 

[kmikami]

If that's all you need in a cinematographer's piece of equipment, Best Buy might have one, and if not, you could try Circuit City or Fry's......

OK, name one. I'll buy it tomorrow. You can't because it doesn't exist.

If you guys truly believe that shallow DOF is more important to image quality than resolution or RAW shooting then I'm guessing that you don't actually make images for a living.

I would take a sharp, clean image with deep focus any day over an "artsy" image with shallow DOF but increased noise, compression artifacts and CA.

 

[proaudio4]

I would take a sharp, clean image with deep focus any day over an "artsy" image with shallow DOF but increased noise, compression artifacts and CA.

Actually, we have no idea on the Scarlet image quality. Based on RED ONE, it should be decent. I'm excited about Scarlet, but it's so far until we see what it's really about.

 

[Virum]

I find that many people that really want shallow depth of field are the people that haven't really worked with it. I used to be that way, so I bought a 35mm adapter.

If you are ultra low budget indie this is just another thing that can go wrong. You really need a good focus puller. You need good actors that can hit a mark consistently. If you are using a dolly you need a dolly grip that can hit his mark as well.

And then if you are tired of having so much depth of field, you will need ass loads of light so that you can close that lens up a bit.

If deep focus worked for Orson Welles, it will work for you.

 

[Cory Mitchell]

I remember when Red was first announced a couple years ago. I remember the mysterious site that promised ridiculous promises. People were skeptical. 4k at $17,500? Yeah right, scam.

And then I watched as the attention grew, people adapted, and now, I've heard people complain about the price. Now, that doesn't mean I can afford the Red One, I can't, but I have a healthy dose of perspective.

Scarlet. I think the specs for Scarlet are unbelievable. There is no other 3k camera out there that can record at this quality, period. For $3,000? Hell no.

I just looked at the two cheapest HD lens interchangeable cameras that I'm aware of, the Canon XL-H1 (1080i, $7,999) and the GY-HD200U (720p, $5,795). (There may be others that I'm not aware of, but...)

People are seriously treating this like a fast food restaurant. I understand why people have placed so much emphasis on certain features, but I also think it's obvious that Red has read these forums and conscientiously made the choices they made.

In my opinion, give them a little more respect than has been given, and stop treating this like a botched fast food order. I don't mean that offensively, it just sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't exactly get what they ordered for Christmas, around here. Perspective.

Keep up the amazing work Red.

visionmind

 

[Bing Bailey]

guys you can't base the quality on RED ONE for the simple reason that scarlet will have a new sensor. the same sensor that will be standard as the sensor in epic and the upgradable sensor in RED ONE. it'll probably have greater DR and a non hobbled rock solid lens. christ you could buy two scarlets and some accessories for below 10k and shoot a pretty rocking movie with an A & B Cam

 

[Gabriel Winebrenner]

I remember when Red was first announced a couple years ago. I remember the mysterious site that promised ridiculous promises. People were skeptical. 4k at $17,500? Yeah right, scam.

And then I watched as the attention grew, people adapted, and now, I've heard people complain about the price. Now, that doesn't mean I can afford the Red One, I can't, but I have a healthy dose of perspective.

Scarlet. I think the specs for Scarlet are unbelievable. There is no other 3k camera out there that can record at this quality, period. For $3,000? Hell no.

I just looked at the two cheapest HD lens interchangeable cameras that I'm aware of, the Canon XL-H1 (1080i, $7,999) and the GY-HD200U (720p, $5,795). (There may be others that I'm not aware of, but...)

People are seriously treating this like a fast food restaurant. I understand why people have placed so much emphasis on certain features, but I also think it's obvious that Red has read these forums and conscientiously made the choices they made.

In my opinion, give them a little more respect than has been given, and stop treating this like a botched fast food order. I don't mean that offensively, it just sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't exactly get what they ordered for Christmas, around here. Perspective.

Keep up the amazing work Red.

visionmind

Listen man. Jim said to expect changes in the model. This isn't a fast food joint. This is RED were talking about here. I'm not going to jump out on a limb and treat Jim like some demi-God and say that every idea that comes about from a prototype model should be set in stone. That's not the way RED works to my knowledge and that's not how I work either. Artistically I've done a lot of things that sometimes are criticized. Sometimes, I realize, some criticisms are good and my art becomes better with such insight which I wasn't able to see. It's not like the person does your art for you. It's like a hot girlfriend saying what could be better about something and with your vision, you suddenly come up with something that much better. And suddenly not just 20 peeps are like, hey that rocks, but now there are 100s and your like, I am the shit, and the hot girl actually had my back or rather I had hers for a sec.

The Canon XL-H1=shit, not even true 24p, interface problems and hdv

the hvx200 is better but it's resolution sucks

The Scarlet will become even better with added lens options and will become the true little sis' of the RED ONE. That is a promise. If not, I'm gonna pimp myself to a parlor and see what happens......