STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT SCARLET SPECS!

[David Stewart]

I'm with you there Robert. Disappointing day for me. $10k won't even get you shooting BTW. This smells like a pushed product for Canon's announced camera. In fact we were led to believe the fixed scarlet was the next release. No remote zoom lens - can't use on my crane. Scarlet is a great cinema cam. How many here are shooting for cinema release? I would venture many people here are only going to see their stuff on a TV. Now with bigger storage requirements and render times, I'm sure this will be annoying when your final product will be 1080. Just saying. I'm off to B&H.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

Look all the specs we've been getting up till now were not promises but goals. Red wanted to make a specific camera at a low price point, but after 3+ years of R&D found it wasn't going to be possible. What most of us are annoyed with isn't the complaints that the camera isn't what you wanted but that Red some how owes you the camera you wanted. Red hasn't betrayed you, your unrealistic expectations have betrayed you.

I think this is the crux of it Stephen. Granted, Red helped to create expectations over several years for a certain level of performance and price in Scarlet. But it was always qualified with "things can and will change."

So they didn't hit all of their objectives. What they offer instead with Scarlet, however, is an extraordinary camera at an unbelievable price.

Jim has stated in the aftermath of the Scarlet announcement that while the Red team would like to please everyone, they can't. They need to make decisions based on the reality of available technology, and the dynamics of the market, just like very other company on the planet. What Red has and will have learned through exchanges on Reduser like this one is to play it far closer to the vest. They have already stated elsewhere that they will not talk about future plans and dreams for cameras and technology as they have in the past. I understand the disappointment some of those old projections about Scarlet have caused. But I liked the interchange of ideas about their plans and designs, and to the degree that it's lost, I will miss it.

Tim Eaton

 

[Robert Jackson]

I think RED made the right decision. Why should they compete in the low-end where there are too many choices already.

Yeah, 'cause all 2/3" cameras are "low end" cameras. You know, ghetto-cams like the Sony F23 and the Panasonic HPX3700.

Red's mistake was marketing 2/3" as an entry-level alternative to their Super-35 offerings. It backed them into a corner in that there were price expectations. Maybe if they'd promoted it as a professional format to replace Super-16 it wouldn't have been as tough to bring in at an acceptable price point. $12k for a really nice 2/3" camera would have still been a bargain, IMO.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think RED made the right decision. Why should they compete in the low-end where there are too many choices already. I think it's a fantastic camera for it's intended market.

To be clear - there exactly ZERO choices in the market that offer what the 2/3" Scarlets offered. No REDCode, no modularity, no HDRX, no 120 fps, no touchscreen, no REDmote, no cine-quality lens at f/2.4 etc. And, IMO, this didn't have to be the "low end" (which, of course, is always subjective) as I would have gladly paid $10K or more for this camera.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

mostly I'm disappointed in myself for buying into their hype machine.

that's a step in the right direction...waiting on a camera seems like a foolish waste of time.

I just don't understanding waiting around on a product release...too many things to shoot. Increasingly, too many great cameras to shoot them on - lucky us that RED (and Canon, for that matter, with their lucky strike known as the DSLR revolution) has pushed the industry so hard, or so many of us would still be shooting on 1/3'' crapola trickleware cams...

 

[Robert Jackson]

To be clear - there exactly ZERO choices in the market that offer what the 2/3" Scarlets offered. No REDCode, no modularity, no HDRX, no 120 fps, no touchscreen, no REDmote, no cine-quality lens at f/2.4 etc.

Yeah, exactly. And now there won't be any Compact Primes and I was really looking forward to those. I'll probably go with an Ikonoskop now, but I'll be limited to 30 fps and the size of the RAW files are huge because they're uncompressed. The 2/3" Scarlet was a real draw to guys who've spent time working with 16mm. This was the "Digital 16mm" that we've all been waiting for. Like I said, I understand that it was apparently just too much for Red to dump into R&D and the program had been teased now for three years, so they were getting down to a point where they kinda had to introduce something. Still, it's a bummer. Doesn't mean I'm not a fan of Red anymore, but they really aren't making anything for me now.

 

[Robert Jackson]

that's a step in the right direction...waiting on a camera seems like a foolish waste of time.

Not if you're sitting on a lot of 16mm lenses. Don't get me wrong, I've been waiting on a digital camera because Red said they were building one that suited my needs, but I have all the film cameras I need ranging from several 8mm cameras to several 16 and Super-16mm cameras to a couple of 35mm cameras. I'd just hoped Red was going to be the digital that I could start using as an alternative to 16mm.

 

[stu aull]

Heh...I'm pretty sure we only formed those expectations because Red told us that was what they were going to build and even displayed prototypes and uploaded test footage for us to check out. And then instead of saying, "We screwed up. What we promised you for three years simply isn't possible." they said the original promises weren't "future-proof" and that something much less appealing was actually an upgrade. I mean, I get why they did it and I'm disappointed, but mostly I'm disappointed in myself for buying into their hype machine. 'Cause I bought it hook, line and sinker. I've been waiting to place an order for a camera that they have no intention of building.

Robert-
Ah feel yor pain my friend. Your points and perspective, I totally understand. As a 30yr cameraman who has been holding onto his BetaCam, posed to leap generations of prosumer HD cameras for a 2/3rds RED, I found myself in the same pickle last night. Hell, I have owned a BOMB for this camera for a YEAR! (Please extend my warranty period RED!). Compounded by a hacked Presentation that meant I basically had to make that leap with virtually NO specs on the Now-New-Scarlet. As the "Buy Now" page slooooowly chugged to life I was literally rethinking my whole approach to how I was going to use this camera...what I lost...what I've gained...(what it was now going to cost). I made the leap. I am willing to adjust, to learn, to embrace a newer/better way to shoot - while continuing to hope that RED will be able to eventually get back some of the cool features we lost in the Translation.... 120FPS ato 2K would be a Great Start!!!

Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[John Warner]

It's just kind of annoying really, "Ted from Red" has been running around with a fixed scarlet for years, and was quoted on video a few months ago at NAB 2011 when red released the "monstro" news. Showing the fixed 8x shooting people getting tattoo's saying it will be around 7-8 grand and shipping late September/November.

So was he lying to us all these months with the summer fixed scarlett buzz?

 

[Robert Jackson]

It's just kind of annoying really, "Ted from Red" has been running around with a fixed scarlet for years, and was quoted on video a few months ago at NAB 2011 when red released the "monstro" news. Showing the fixed 8x shooting people getting tattoo's saying it will be around 7-8 grand and shipping late September/November.

So was he lying to us all these months with the summer fixed scarlett buzz?

There were a lot of rumors floating around that the interchangeable lens Scarlet was dead and while Ted wouldn't confirm it, he said something about not knowing what was up with that program. So my completely uninformed guess is that they'd already kind of decided to kill the compact primes program and the interchangeable lens program by the time NAB rolled around. It seems like there was a trainwreck sometime between NAB and the announcement that Red would make an announcement on the same day as Canon's announcement. In all likelihood the decision boiled down to problems with the Asian supply chain. The Japanese earthquake and then the recent flooding have made trade in that region problematic at best. I applaud the decision to make the Reds in California, but I understand that ramping up a second completely different line in-house probably pushed the scope of the program out of reach.

 

[Gary Jones]

The problem was the expectations you had for the camera.

Red designed the Fixed and Interchangeable Scarlets as entry level cameras. Competitors for the Sony EX1/3, the Canon XH-A1/L1's of this world. The prosumers. As time went on, the cost increased, but their idea of where the Scarlet family sat never did. Due to problems caused by the tsunami it was delayed. They also decided to move more manufacturing to the US. This would of pushed the price of their entry level camera to close to $10K. The problem with that was the Epic-S was very close to this price point.

They decided to merge the products and put out an entry level camera that is designed to steal the entire market dominated by Canon DSLR's and prosumer cameras. That's music videos, corporate videos, live gigs etc. while at the same time giving indie film makers a fully fledged DSMC camera that produces a picture that equals that used in Hollywood.

You saw a vision for the Scarlet that was never Red's, EFP/ENG - and kudos to you for seeing it. You can be disappointed that it no longer fits that vision, but don't blame Red for building a camera that is twice the camera they promised for the target audience the original camera was aimed at.

You should of known, everything changes...

 

[Michael Dalton]

I feel bad for anyone who was not happy last night, and they should be able to express their views. Each filmmaker has their own needs. What may be great for you and me, may not be for them. We have all invested a lot of emotions in this company and their products, and had dreams we wished fulfilled. For some that won't happen today. I'm sure the decision Jim and team made was extremely hard (beyond financial), but necessary in their mind.

I got lucky last night, today my dreams have expanded, and I'm only limited now by my own imagination and a shipping date.

 

[Carter Cammack]

Yup. The end of the 2/3 unit bites if you've been led by the carrot on the string for 3 years. If they could have got it to market a year or more ago, the original working proto that TED showed everywhere would have been a great unit . . . unless you want to PROJECT to a theater screen.
Today, there are a dozen great HD camcorders that will do broadcast TV for under 7 grand. Though a lot of people would buy one, the 3k unit wouldn't be disruptive today on a technical level.

Those of us coming from shooting s-16 film for potential theater release are all over this New and Improved Scarlet. We can own something we would otherwise be renting, and get the whole RED workflow. And when we need slow-mo or HDRx, we can rent an Epic and use our accessories. The Cannon and Nikon mounts give us 150 new lens options.

I like to bitch, but I ain't bitchin' about this one.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Yup. The end of the 2/3 unit bites if you've been led by the carrot on the string for 3 years. If they could have got it to market a year or more ago, the original working proto that TED showed everywhere would have been a great unit . . . unless you want to PROJECT to a theater screen.
Today, there are a dozen great HD camcorders that will do broadcast TV for under 7 grand. Though a lot of people would buy one, the 3k unit wouldn't be disruptive today on a technical level.

Those of us coming from shooting s-16 film for potential theater release are all over this New and Improved Scarlet. We can own something we would otherwise be renting, and get the whole RED workflow. And when we need slow-mo or HDRx, we can rent an Epic and use our accessories. The Cannon and Nikon mounts give us 150 new lens options.

I like to bitch, but I ain't bitchin' about this one.

Just a couple of thoughts...

- not everything produced, even for "professional" purposes, is aimed at "the big screen"
- no (as in ZERO) camera from any other manufacturer shoots REDCode RAW
- not everyone who wanted Scarlet Fixed wanted it for ENG
- the form factor of the new Scarlet is very much bigger than the previous Scarlet prototypes
- Scarlet-X is an incredible camera and will kick ass in the marketplace

 

[Robert Jackson]

Yup. The end of the 2/3 unit bites if you've been led by the carrot on the string for 3 years. If they could have got it to market a year or more ago, the original working proto that TED showed everywhere would have been a great unit . . . unless you want to PROJECT to a theater screen.

Really? 'Cause I've seen plenty of feature films that originated in 1080p that looked pretty good projected on a theater screen. One would assume that 3K origination might have been just as good.

 

[Jason Murphy]

It would absolutely be disruptive. 3K at 120 FPS, shooting RAW for under 10K? There is absolutely nothing that comes close to that currently. The closest camera to that would be the Ikonoscop, and that's limited to 1080p, shoots up to 30 FPS, and since the RAW is uncompressed, it has data rates higher than Epic. And that's for around $10K minimum.

 

[Carter Cammack]

Just a couple of thoughts...

- not everything produced, even for "professional" purposes, is aimed at "the big screen"
- no (as in ZERO) camera from any other manufacturer shoots REDCode RAW
- not everyone who wanted Scarlet Fixed wanted it for ENG
- the form factor of the new Scarlet is very much bigger than the previous Scarlet prototypes
- Scarlet-X is an incredible camera and will kick ass in the marketplace

Well said. The 2/3 unit would have been for a MUCH broader market, had they been able to produce it before it was technically obselete.
I said on another thread that 3k RAW footage with RED's postflow would KILL any competitor's overcompressed mpeg-long-GOP file formats.

Your dog looks a little frusrated too, T.

 

[Robert Jackson]

It would absolutely be disruptive. 3K at 120 FPS, shooting RAW for under 10K? There is absolutely nothing that comes close to that currently. The closest camera to that would be the Ikonoscop, and that's limited to 1080p, shoots up to 30 FPS, and since the RAW is uncompressed, it has data rates higher than Epic. And that's for around $10K minimum.

Although for me that price is completely dependent on the Euro remaining at over $1.30 relative to the U.S. Dollar, so c'mon Greece! Reject that bailout plan and see if you can send the Euro into a tailspin! ;-)

 

[Jason Murphy]

Although for me that price is completely dependent on the Euro remaining at over $1.30 relative to the U.S. Dollar, so c'mon Greece! Reject that bailout plan and see if you can send the Euro into a tailspin! ;-)

True that. Though I suspect there may be other negative repercussions to the collapse of the Eurozone.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I can certainly feel the pain of people sitting on a pile of 16mm lenses - but the cold, hard facts are that as soon as RED starts releasing its electronic lenses, currently under development, guess what? My set of Zeiss Master Primes is quite likely going to be fish food. I'll see your set of 16mm and raise you a set of mechanical MPs....

That's technology, folks....

My prediction for SCARLET was that they were going to build a camera which could roll out on their existing production lines. It has taken them forever to get these production lines moving along - having to re-set the equivalent of an entire factory to do this didn't make sense - not when they can recycle unuseable EPIC chips, replicate the EPIC form factor - and given the fact that raw materials costs have been escalating.

What they did makes good financial sense for them. All of these suggestions that they pulled some sort of bait and switch are nonsense. This is a five year old company, folks! As they have told us repeatedly, they "didn't know what they're doing" - they're figuring out what makes sense for their company, what their company spirit and philosophy and product mix is going to be.

That they do this here in real time is its own revolution. To hear this gift regurgitated as some sort of cheat is, frankly, a little nauseating.

It's like getting to sit at the feet of a Jobs or a Gates as they build their company from the ground up--warts and all. We are inside of their product development. We get to ask them questions. We get to listen to how their day is going. This is an incredible privilege. This free forum is an incredible education.

We have a free ringside seat to a historically significant moment, and what do we do with it? Wah wah wah.

If this sounds like you, you have the answer to why you can't afford this camera and why your project is still vapor while you blame RED for pulling a fast one.

I am about to put in my order for my sixth RED camera (SCARLET), and let me just say that I haven't always been pleased with every move they make, all of the time. I have certainly yapped loudly about my displeasures. But if you are fair with them in your yapping, they will listen. But saying shit like "bait and switch" or "hype machine" - that is just totally unfair to the company that RED is trying to become. Somehow people easily forget that this is still the first inning of the game for RED...remarkably.

They have let us in on their process - and that is exactly what it is, a process and a journey. In real time.

But at the end of the day, whether you like their product mix or not, you can trust that they have done their best - they put their best foot forward and will do what makes sense for their most customers, while not giving away the farm or shooting themselves in the foot.

You can take that to the bank.