Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stolen lenses

M

Mitch Gross

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,657
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I've become increasingly aware of a rash of thefts recently of 35mm optics. This has hit rental houses and private owners alike. For the most part, PERA, an organization for camera rental facilities, maintains a list of serial numbers for stolen gear. If you purchase stolen property, even unwittingly, and then it is later discovered, the property will be taken from you for return to its rightful owner. You will be out the money you spent on the property unless you can track down the guy who sold it to you.

The demand for 35mm optics has increased dramatically with the introduction of the RED One. This demand has led to a rise in criminal enterprise. Don't get stuck on the wrong side of this illicit activity, even unintentionally.
 
How does one go about trying to verify the serial numbers of equipment being sold as used against this database of stolen equipment?

I've checked PERA's site for this very reason and it's not immediately obvious were this database is...

JohnF
 
Mitch,

I haven't seen the PERA list in a long time. Is it still active?
 
Mitch Gross said:
If you purchase stolen property, even unwittingly, and then it is later discovered, the property will be taken from you for return to its rightful owner. You will be out the money you spent on the property unless you can track down the guy who sold it to you.
Click to expand...

Is this really correct?

Most common law countries based on the Westminster system (and the US is not one of these - but they're close and share a lot of the same roots) take possession to be nine tenths of the law. I'm a bit rusty, but from memory if a purchaser can demonstrate that the purchase was in good faith and they had no knowledge of the theft - then their ownership holds and the original owner must look to the thief for compensation. Only in cases of land purchases do owners need to do comprehensive title searches (again, this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction).

Not to say that it doesn't suck to have your lenses stolen, but it seems to suck more to lose your money AND your new glass because of something you had no idea about. I don't know. Maybe they suck the same amount.

Don't steal lenses, that's what I'm taking away from all this.
 
"but from memory if a purchaser can demonstrate that the purchase was in good faith and they had no knowledge of the theft - then their ownership holds and the original owner must look to the thief for compensation. "

IMO this would only encourage theft as it provides a selling market where the new buyer has no reason to make sure the item is NOT stolen ... also seems the thief is then provided a larger selling market (buyers) ...

the 9/10 possession is in the US too until somebody else can provide PROOF of ownership ...
 
Well if you send your honestly purchased though stolen lens in for some maintenance then the repair shop is in possession, checks the database and notifies the police/original owner then all kinds of legal fun will commence.

That said in the UK we have "Mense Rea" (Latin: a guilty mind) so for the crime of receiving stolen goods the prosecution would have to prove that the defendant knew the goods were stolen.

I'm not sure, and obviously one should consult a lawyer, about this but I don't think they can seize the goods from you permanently (obviously there would have to be an investigation) unless they find you guilty. Though the original owners insurance company might have a different attitude and insist that the goods/lenses are returned to them so they can recoup their payout.

And remember both the owners of the gear who had it stolen and those who purchased "used" gear in good faith are victims of criminal activity.

It's a tricky business and I wish that the stolen equipment serial numbers were more readily available especially in these days of eBay!

As Ed said "Don't steal lenses"

JohnF
 
I seem to remember sending a used camera in for servicing once to Arri and it turned out that part of the package (I think it was the eyepiece) turned out to be stolen and was not returned to me.
Rob Gardner
 
JohnF said:
Well if you send your honestly purchased though stolen lens in for some maintenance then the repair shop is in possession, checks the database and notifies the police/original owner then all kinds of legal fun will commence.
Click to expand...

I think this is a different kind of possession - the repair shop would have a "lien" over the goods, which means that they only have a right to them in lieu of payment/until payment is received.

Anyway I didn't mean to turn this into a legal glossary. What I'm really looking for is clarification on what the legal position is in the states based on Mitch's post above. Puts an unexpected element of risk into buying lenses second hand which I guess we're all looking at doing.
 
Today is a good day ... I therefore bite my tongue ... Consider it a gesture.


DogDay


P.S.

If you have to ask, don`t.
 
Ed Blythe said:
What I'm really looking for is clarification on what the legal position is in the states based on Mitch's post above. Puts an unexpected element of risk into buying lenses second hand which I guess we're all looking at doing.
Click to expand...

Absolutely,

though the film world being what it is, international, it would help very much if there was some kind of central database of serial numbers of stolen gear that we can refer to when purchasing used equipment.

JohnF
 
I can't speak for other countries, but in the United States you can't keep stolen goods once the authorities find them to be such. If you buy stolen goods you do not legally own them. Why? Because the person who sold them to you did not have the legal right to sell them.

You'll have to return the items either way, but it's only a crime if you know they are stolen:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/2191/Theft-Receiving-stolen-goods.html
 
So to do our due diligence, is there such a list out there?
 
If current trends continue, RED users may eventually be the largest single market for 35mm cine optics & accessories. So, could a database of serial numbers for stolen gear be organized here somehow?
 
I think its time for LENS MAKERS to meet that demand and give us MORE OPTIONS!!!! Flood the market with pristine low-cost Red glass and there won't be this problem..

I have two dump trucks worth of sand ready to go!

*In all seriousness, thanks Mitch for making this thread.. It pays to be aware
 
davide said:
I can't speak for other countries, but in the United States you can't keep stolen goods once the authorities find them to be such. If you buy stolen goods you do not legally own them. Why? Because the person who sold them to you did not have the legal right to sell them.

You'll have to return the items either way, but it's only a crime if you know they are stolen:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/2191/Theft-Receiving-stolen-goods.html
Click to expand...

Davide, thanks for the direct answer. I'm not sure that it's supported by the link you have included. Am I missing something? Can you point out the passage that makes this clear? Or maybe you were just pointing out the criminal aspect.

The person not having the right to sell them does not necessarily mean that an innocent third party does not have the right to buy them. That USED to be the case in the UK system until early last century (I think?) but got changed. That innocent third party (i.e. you, me and everybody else on this thread) has rights too.

BOTH positions make sense and are justifiable. Only ONE can prevail at law. Would be good to know which one.

I second the thanks to Mitch for bringing this up.
 
possession to be nine tenths of the law
Click to expand...

Possession of stolen property is a crime in it self, and you can be jailed while your lawyer(s) clear you.

$20K-$250K in lenses is not a small matter. This get the FBI involved for sure.

Don't even think about it. Buying or Selling.

Tek
 
tekcin said:
Possession of stolen property is a crime in it self, and you can be jailed while your lawyer clear you.
Click to expand...

If your lawyer can clear you it is not a crime.

See Davide's above link - requires knowledge or negligence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top