still, not satisfied

[Ulf Krentz]

Many good thought already pointed out regarding the technical side. Not sure I see your point. Shooting stills with RED is just another tool in the box. I would never expect the "image quality" to be on par with a medium format digital back. That said, we did a shot where we used a medium format camera with strobe, than changed the whole lighting to HMI (more or less exactly matching), shot with a Canon 5DSR and also produced some motion clips with a RED Dragon to extract stills from it. All shots were presented on contact sheets and guess what, the client picked most of the shots from RED. The pure resolution and "image quality" was definitely not superior but the overall facial expression and feeling to the image made the difference. I love this approach for some of my work but I´d not expect it to ever replace a stills workflow whenever it will be needed.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Also, use the new REDCine-X IPP2 beta which has a sharper demosaic.

Graeme

 

[Anton Esteban]

Graeme any idea when this will move from the beta stage so other programs can implement IPP2 correctly?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Graeme any idea when this will move from the beta stage so other programs can implement IPP2 correctly?

It's important to go through the beta process. We're working on moving from beta to release as soon as we can.

Graeme

 

[Matt Bai]

If you're shooting for stills don't go below 120-250 unless you have to. Go well above it.

 

[AndreasOberg]

Just a quick one. I think all feedback is valid and will make the images better, but realistically I cannot imagine that you could get the same quality as a Phase One. The sensor is just so much larger on a medium format. It would still of course be nice to see how close the Helium could get. I would try a sharper lens like maybe Canon 100 2.8 and use it at f5.6 for example.
Interesting thread!
/Andreas

 

[Björn Benckert]

I know the absolute best way to get acquainted with something like this is to do lots of testing, but any jumping off tips/tricks/guides you might be able to share?

Lanczos and you are never that far off from optimal.

Just a quick one. I think all feedback is valid and will make the images better, but realistically I cannot imagine that you could get the same quality as a Phase One. The sensor is just so much larger on a medium format. It would still of course be nice to see how close the Helium could get. I would try a sharper lens like maybe Canon 100 2.8 and use it at f5.6 for example.
Interesting thread!
/Andreas

Yes, regarding sensor size, the bigger the sensor the less important is the quality of the glas. So the only fair comparison is to compare with the same same lens and the same amount of sensor area. As soon as something else is done you simply compare lenses and a lot of other things and not so much looking at the sensors. But sure for one that want to compare two cameras against each other and just pick the best one for a given shot. Then aim and shoot somewhat similar framings and pick the one thats liked more and yes the look of Phase One should be difficult to match as the sensor is simply so much bigger.

60 FPS and 180 degree shutter is nice for motion but still not sharp enough for stills. Motion blur is still going to be an issue. F1.4 is also not ideal for sharp photos. Shot F5.6 at least with higher shutter and who'll see a big improvement.

Also helium at 60fps is rather compressed. If you only aim for stills. It´s preferred to go down in frame rate to 12fps or such and short shutter angle (forgot what number allows highest possible bit rate per frame) Could be possible that going even lower and using HDRx is preferred. As the high frame count does not happen without rased compression.

Now if you shoot low iso the compressions will not hurt much, but if there is a lot of dynamic in the lightning or if you are slightly under exposed then the compressions will show quite a bit when digital gain / iso is lifted.

 

[Thai Christen]

In my earlier days as a portrait and commercial photographer I shot most exclusively on medium format using my beloved Hasselblad V and Leaf 28MB Digital Back. Then I bought into Mamiya Leaf Credo System with 50MB Digital Back and the new Schneider Kreuznach LS lenses (basically same like Phase One Q1).

What I can tell based on my experience, when it comes to sharp and crisp stills, there are three things (in this order):
1. Lens FOV and shutter speed used
2. How well I nail focus
3. ISO used

When I shoot handheld and manual focus (AF never worked for me on medium format system, it just sucks), I get about the same sharpness , crispiness and detail out of my EpicW 8K and Leica-R 60 Macro compared to the file from my Leaf 50MB and Schneider Kreuznach LS. Hit rate is about the same too, which depends on how fast the subject is moving.
The only time when my Medium Format System will yield better results is when I use strobes.
But other than that, I prefer the files from my EpicW, especially with IPP2. Better highlight roll off, more DR, and nicer texture.

 

[Simon Lok]

Thank you all for helping me on my quest. The various comments on here have definitely allowed me to make things better. This community is wonderful. I have been struggling with the concept of getting stills going for years. I struggled with my Epic Dragon and gave up and I've only recently after seeing all the dxo mark brouhaha decided to try this again seriously with my Weapon Helium. Thanks to all the helpful comments I am definitely getting closer.

First off, I did install IPP2 and it appears to me that IPP2 does absolutely amazing things. I am shocked that the world is relatively silent about this. It would appear that the IPP2 software upgrade on the Weapon Helium is the equivalent of buying an entirely new ($50k) camera... and it is free.

Now one huge problem... I am not sure what I am suppose to do about the compression. Shooting at compression level 2:1 requires the frame rate to be reduced to a low number. When the frame rate is set to something like 5 FPS then it becomes very difficult to find focus. In fact in general I would say finding focus even at a higher frame rate is a more difficult than it should be. Gotta zoom in and out and whatnot. Is it just me or is finding focus on an electronic screen suppose to be that much harder than through an optical mechanism? Needless to say autofocus is only somewhat useful.

One way I've tried to get around this is to use the Red Code burst feature to try to have the camera set at 24 FPS and then record at 2:1 ... however the shutter in that mode (and all the still modes) is a little wonky. The only time I feel that I can get consistent results with the shutter going off is when I am continuous record. I do understand that shutter lag is a part of life but the problem is not just the lag, it's the inconsistency in the lag. Sometimes it's just last but every fifth push it's like 3X the lag. So back to continuous record for me I guess.

I will work at this some more when I have time but overall I am still, not satisfied, LOL. I am however, in a better position. Thanks again and I will keep working on this when I have time.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

For focus issues, I would suggest trying out edge focus. It's been a lifesaver for me.

The other option is to hire a 1st AC and get a wireless follow focus for your lens. I know you are shooting stills, but the workflow is still film-ish, so maybe a solid 1st AC is the solution to your focus problems.

 

[Viktor Sloth]

i shoot stuff like this with the old epic dragon and i am more than pleased with sharpness and the colour rendering.

(ps. appears there is no way to make a clickable thumbnail size, or am i just retarded?)

 

[Graeme Nattress]

i shoot stuff like this with the old epic dragon and i am more than pleased with sharpness and the colour rendering.

(ps. appears there is no way to make a clickable thumbnail size, or am i just retarded?)

Fantastic image Viktor!! What lens did you use??

Graeme

 

[Viktor Sloth]

Fantastic image Viktor!! What lens did you use??

Graeme

thanks a lot graeme!
i used an old time favorite - the canon 100mm l.
it is extremely hard to beat, i know you agree with me.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I agree. I need to add one to my collection!

Graeme

 

[Viktor Sloth]

for the price it's just amazing!
not gonna go off-topic here, but it is great!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Isn't Phase One a medium format system used with Hasselblad cameras and similar? A medium sized sensor has great impact on the feel of the image, we are talking IMAX 65mm sensor size in comparison, but here you are comparing Helium to it which isn't even a regular FF system in terms of still photography.

 

[Thai Christen]

Isn't Phase One a medium format system used with Hasselblad cameras and similar? A medium sized sensor has great impact on the feel of the image, we are talking IMAX 65mm sensor size in comparison, but here you are comparing Helium to it which isn't even a regular FF system in terms of still photography.

I think we are more talking about sharpness, clarity and details rather than feel of image, which of course is a different matter.

As I said previously, with the right technique, settings and lens you can achieve Helium 8K FF stills that are on par with medium format photography (40-50MB digital backs). Only when using strobes, medium format has a clear edge over any motion picture camera system.
I still own Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 medium format (equivalent to Phase One IQ1/2 50). I like images from my Epic-W better. Grain is more film, better DR and highlight rolloff, especially with IPP2.

I wish RED could implement flash sync port into their camera bodies for shooting still, though.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think we are more talking about sharpness, clarity and details rather than feel of image, which of course is a different matter.

As I said previously, with the right technique, settings and lens you can achieve Helium 8K FF stills that are on par with medium format photography (40-50MB digital backs). Only when using strobes, medium format has a clear edge over any motion picture camera system.
I still own Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 medium format (equivalent to Phase One IQ1/2 50). I like images from my Epic-W better. Grain is more film, better DR and highlight rolloff, especially with IPP2.

I wish RED could implement flash sync port into their camera bodies for shooting still, though.

Isn't Mamiya the budget version of digital medium format? Phase One and Hasselblads own is the best you can get on any digital still camera quality. What I mean here is that I'm not talking about what you prefer but in terms of the OPs things about grain and so on. The thing about Helium is that it's a sub 35mm sensor (compared to regular FF still photography sensors) with an extreme pixel density. The digital medium format sensors have a lot larger photosites, meaning if you compare the Alexa 65 with the Dragon 6K, there's a huge difference in clarity, noise, sharpness and so on, even though it's the same resolution. The Phase One and Hasselblad medium format sensors should blow any Red camera out of the water in terms of still photography.

I understand the appeal of a digital camera that shoots motion for still capture, but in terms of pure photographic quality, both in sensor size, noise ratio, clarity and so on, there's nothing that beats Phase One and Hasselblad in my opinion. Not until Red release a 6 or 8K 65mm sensor, so that we get much larger photosites on it. Comparing Dragon 6K with Alexa 65 is a clear example of how pixel to sensor size matters in digital.

 

[Thai Christen]

Isn't Mamiya the budget version of digital medium format? Phase One and Hasselblads own is the best you can get on any digital still camera quality. What I mean here is that I'm not talking about what you prefer but in terms of the OPs things about grain and so on. The thing about Helium is that it's a sub 35mm sensor (compared to regular FF still photography sensors) with an extreme pixel density. The digital medium format sensors have a lot larger photosites, meaning if you compare the Alexa 65 with the Dragon 6K, there's a huge difference in clarity, noise, sharpness and so on, even though it's the same resolution. The Phase One and Hasselblad medium format sensors should blow any Red camera out of the water in terms of still photography.

It is a little bit more complicated. Mamiya and Leaf Imaging (Israeli company) used to be own entities offering medium format digital backs. Then Leaf Imaging went into partnership with Mamiya (Mamiya Leaf) before they were purchased by Phase One. Leaf has a long history producing outstanding medium format digital backs. Mamiya on the other hand had a long history with their great medium format camera and lens systems. However, Mamiya digital backs were always subpar to the other brands.
So when Phase One bought Mamiya Leaf, they copy quite a lot of technology from Mamiya and Leaf. To make the story short, Phase One rebranded the Mamiya 645 body and Mamiya shutter leaf lenses (Mamiya Schneider Kreuznach) to Phase One and sold them for higher price. Their IQ1 digital backs are the same like the Leaf Credo digital backs spec wise with some add on feature and different UI. But the tech inside is the same. But Phase One IQ backs costs at least 25% more than Leaf Credo backs. It is only the brand and UI. I think with the current IQ3 100MB digital backs Phase One has made quite a jump in terms of DR and image quality etc. I have not tested yet, but DR is rated 15. The older backs were around 12.5-14 DR.

Coming back to the topic, I was referring to what has been discussed previously and the concern that was raised by Simon Lok. Regardless of how good and how big the sensor is, when shooting handheld you MUST absolute nail your focus 100% to get the sharpest and most detailed image. It also depends on the subject you are shooting and how much motion are in the frame. Also, the bigger the sensor and resolution the more you have to work on your shooting technique, very steady hand or shoot on tripod/stick. Only slightest errors can lead in image degradation.

Trust me, I have been shooting medium format since 2008. I have many many early images shot on medium format that are worse than those from my long retired Canon 5D2. What does it matter if medium format has better DR, noise ratio, resolution etc. if you don't nail your focus or have shaky hands. Your image will look like crap. If you don't believe me, go and ask any still photographer shooting medium format.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

snip

I wish RED could implement flash sync port into their camera bodies for shooting still, though.

Red used to have that on their DSMC1 Side handle. Functionality was implemented very late but did work pretty well tough unfortunately not with short shutter speeds. I have been able to even light motion clips with strobe for special effects. Great feature, missing in the current line of cameras.
BTW, that Leaf / Mamiya combo is an excellent choice but Mamiya never had own backs, they have always been Leaf. P1 acquired a lot of color science from Leaf.

Cheers,

Ulf