steps to avoid Noise and Softness

[Terry VerHaar]

Why so sarcastic Erich, instead of being helpful. The original post is trying to help. I see you are on your way to become the next pixar. Were you born with all of your knowledge, experience etc? So yes, I'm sure some of us are not sure how to work with our new Scarlet cameras, sure we need to learn, and become better at lighting, exposing etc. But I don't get why is it that some members feel the need to come in to the thread, that is trying to help, and are being sarcastic, or essentially making fun of people that invested in RED, and are trying to learn and become better at the craft.

Patrik - my only question to you is: Are you happy with any information that is meant to help, or does it matter if it is actually accurate and can be of genuine help. In other words, is it the intent of the post, or the actual substance which you are wanting?

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Brandon is laughing because Brandon is amazed how many prosumers can afford a Scarlet or Epic when what they really need to invest in is a few textbooks on lighting, a degree in production or a few years of working up to some sort of core competence as film makers.

Put a point-and-shoot in the hands of a master and you will get a masterpiece, however place a professional caliber instrument in the hands of a point-and -shooter. And you will most assuredly produce a train wreck.

 

[Patrik Kisucky]

I agree Terry, the content is important, but my point was that the person was trying to help, and perhaps RED team could step in, and take that initiative. And so to see people being this disrespectful is just disappointing.

Patrik - my only question to you is: Are you happy with any information that is meant to help, or does it matter if it is actually accurate and can be of genuine help. In other words, is it the intent of the post, or the actual substance which you are wanting?

 

[Les C.]

Les - again, with all due respect to your efforts, your comments are not very scientific or helpful when it comes down to what's going to make a difference.

Like all electronic sensors, the RED MX is going to be more sensitive to the green-blue spectrum and, therefore, doesn't do as well in tungsten lighting. This is a known fact but your white balance while shooting will not effect what you end up with. Phil Holland suggested effectively "changing" your lighting to 5000-5600K but I am not sure the way you present this issue on your "checklist" will be all that helpful. Again, there is no substitute for good exposure when it come to noise. As far as focus, there is no way to "fix" focus - you just have to get it nailed using all the tools you have. When you do - it's there.

You make reference to threads where REDusers are claiming various phenomena, but there is no evidence that these occurrences are attributable to any genuine problems. As to white balancing with a grey card - you can white balance with anything that has equal parts red-green-blue; grey is less reflective than white but they all have the same effect if done correctly. Again - just not relevant to the noise issue or needed on a checklist of things to do to eliminate noise and focus "softness."

I appreciate what you are trying to do. My problem with the way you did it is that it really distracts from what people should be paying attention to to get good exposures. I suggest looking for some old posts where Jim gives his own formulas for getting good results in terms of exposure.As for focus... just make sure you have good eyes, use your tools and don't expect more out of your lenses than they are capable of. :smiley:

As for the point about shooting at 800, but 320 if you have a light meter... ?? :huh:

Terry - I'd love it if there were a tech note that had the answers I'm looking for. I'm not really the right person to do this, but ... as long as I get corrected by people who know more than I do, maybe it will be useful?

I do read a lot on these forum, and I see a lot of the same questions come up over and over. If there were a sticky with the 'correct' information, many of the repetitive threads on this forum would be unnecessary.

The sensor is rated 320. If you can expose perfectly while measuring the light levels of the different parts of the scene, so that you don't blow out the highlights, my impression from a lot of reading is that you should go with 320.

Most new users to Scarlet should probably go with 800 to be safe.

I've read pros/cons about this in a lot of threads. Maybe there is no one single perfect answer - there will certainly be those who choose one or the other with persuasive arguments. But, my 'advice' would probably point a new user towards using 800.

Please feel free to correct any errors I make. I don't really have an ego, I just want to find the answers.

 

[James Fleming]

Thanks Les. This is a very useful summary. I too have been perplexed by the amount of noise in some of my footage. Good to share notes.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Put a point-and-shoot in the hands of a master and you will get a masterpiece, however place a professional caliber instrument in the hands of a point-and -shooter. And you will most assuredly produce a train wreck.

Agreed, I kind of think of pro camera's like motogp bike, they have a lot of performance and have no "play" tolerance - by design. I can't imagine someone learning to drive on a motogp bike, lmao they would either die or bad mouth the bike because it didn't handle "correctly". I really wounder about the epic guys that haven't shot much, though I must say, I wouldn't mind having a motogp bike in my garage ... even if all I ever did with it is look at it.

I btw like to do a test shot with both a white-backfocus chart and the RED color chart, it helps in post for both noise and focus processing. I do shoot a lot at 1 second exposure, which has a tendency to push the edges on noise and softness (i.e. 1 fps at 360 degrees).

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Les - if your intent was to start a discussion, great. I read it as meaning to give advice to new Scarlet users and on that front, I find it lacking. I'll let you work it all out, however works for you... if it's helpful to others, terrific.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Why so sarcastic Erich, instead of being helpful.

My apologies if I came across as sarcastic, that wasn't my intent. I also wasn't making fun of anyone -- lighting costs both time and money to do well, and the camera can't do that for you, RED or otherwise. Therefore, people with little money (e.g. some Scarlet owners, but certainly not limited to them) are likely to have poorly exposed footage in situations where they cannot afford to control the lighting.

Best, Erich

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

One more bit of self expression before I bail on this thread.....

It is NOT the camera that is at fault here... It is USER ERROR and it is the quality of the light and the GLASS!!!!!

If you combine inexperience with a modified piece of crap lens in front of ANY camera ever made you will produce....CRAP.

On the same tip, take a prosumer, buy the best glass in the world and shoot with IMAX camera with a poorly lit subject and......(wait for it)...you will produce a REALLY BIG HUNK OF CRAP.

To Erich's point, it has historically been the industry norm that professional instruments require a professional user and RED cameras are certainly no different in that respect.

Pilots learn to fly in Cessnas before they graduate up to the ranks to larger craft, because it is only logical that an Airbus in the hands of a beginner will almost always crash and burn..

 

[Nick Morrison]

Brandon is laughing because Brandon is amazed how many prosumers can afford a Scarlet or Epic when what they really need to invest in is a few textbooks on lighting, a degree in production or a few years of working up to some sort of core competence as film makers.

Put a point-and-shoot in the hands of a master and you will get a masterpiece, however place a professional caliber instrument in the hands of a point-and -shooter. And you will most assuredly produce a train wreck.

Brandon needs to listen to David Cross's bit on Ricky Henderson and the hilarity of people who refer to themselves in the third person. The bit culminates with Ricky trying to leave himself a message on his own answering machine...it's worth listening too, but only if you are able to laugh at yourself.

:smiley:

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Brandon needs to listen to David Cross's bit on Ricky Henderson and the hilarity of people who refer to themselves in the third person. The bit culminates with Ricky trying to leave himself a message on his own answering machine...it's worth listening too, but only if you are able to laugh at yourself.

:smiley:

Brandon laughs at himself, David cross and Nick's 201 area code.

 

[William Albertini]

During my first month with TARKOVSKY, #1571 I have learned to check the goalposts, the histogram and the traffic lights religiously, and rely on them above and beyond what the display is showing me. The display is for framing and focus…. I leave my ISO at 320 and my color temp. at 5000 as any changes are only metadata. I am really happy with the results I have been getting.

Brandon is laughing because Brandon is amazed how many prosumers can afford a Scarlet or Epic when what they really need to invest in is a few textbooks on lighting, a degree in production or a few years of working up to some sort of core competence as film makers.

Put a point-and-shoot in the hands of a master and you will get a masterpiece, however place a professional caliber instrument in the hands of a point-and -shooter. And you will most assuredly produce a train wreck.

...YAWN...

 

[Les C.]

One more bit of self expression before I bail on this thread.....

It is NOT the camera that is at fault here... It is USER ERROR and it is the quality of the light and the GLASS!!!!!

If you combine inexperience with a modified piece of crap lens in front of ANY camera ever made you will produce....CRAP.

On the same tip, take a prosumer, buy the best glass in the world and shoot with IMAX camera with a poorly lit subject and......(wait for it)...you will produce a REALLY BIG HUNK OF CRAP.

To Erich's point, it has historically been the industry norm that professional instruments require a professional user and RED cameras are certainly no different in that respect.

Pilots learn to fly in Cessnas before they graduate up to the ranks to larger craft, because it is only logicl that an Airbus in the hands of a beginner will almost always crash ad burn..

Yes, I modified my original post a bit. The whole goal is to help new users a least realize the possibility that there's a lot of work needed to implement a 'correct' workflow - and that their poor workflow, not the camera, is the problem.

My guess is that you can only sell so many $50K cameras that need another $20K of accessories to be usable.

After the top studios and directors are saturated, the real money for RED is going to come from the smaller purchases in the Scarlet range. That's where the 'volume' market is.

To reach that market, RED needs to do more on the education front.

Unhappy un-knowledgeable users talk and complain. This does not result in increased sales.

Happy successful users also talk a lot, about their successes. This does result in increased sales.

RED must insure (as much as humanly possible), that these new users succeed.

I see a lot of users who don't know the very basics of the camera. Hopelessly out of their depth.

Hey, I'm probably one of them!

So, besides providing a great camera, RED needs to find a way to educate the potential and new users.

They need to make it easy for them to purchase.

If there are rumors that it's hard or expensive to use in post (you need a Rocket), RED should consider providing CUDA support in their API (which ARRI is in the process of implementing according to my sources) for de-bayering.

Make the cost of entry low, get them hooked on the Scarlet gateway drug, make them educated and happy, and you've got them for life with upgrades.

Ahhh - but I digress. I'll get off my soapbox now! Cheers!

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Video Interventions.....YAWN.....

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I agree that exposing for Iso 320 seems to give the cleanest results in most situations...(plus it indirectly makes you expose to the right once you apply the iso 800 Lut.) although in very bright situation like shooting in the bright sun, I prefer exposing at ISO 800 to protect the highlights... We have no noise issue since we followed that process (thanks to the talented Mark Toia that suggested the ISo 320 tip)

 

[Scott Crawley]

To get back on the helpful track I offer you a few links. They contain some of the best information I've seen on the subjects of exposure and noise, ISO and color balance:


A comprehensive place to start is right here-
http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/RED1_MX_and_Arri_Alexa/ISO_&_Kelvin_-_an_introduction.html

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?70891-Best-Practices-Obtaining-Proper-Exposure-Share-your-methods-please

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?30055-Exposure-101

There are plenty of others... I would have included some of David Mullen's posts, but there are hundreds of pages of them and finding the most appropriate posts will take time. Any new user would be well advised simply start with #1 and keep on going. No time will be wasted.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?2714-Ask-David-Mullen-ANYTHING

 

[Kevin Marshall]

I agree that exposing for Iso 320 seems to give the cleanest results in most situations...(plus it indirectly makes you expose to the right once you apply the iso 800 Lut.) although in very bright situation like shooting in the bright sun, I prefer exposing at ISO 800 to protect the highlights... We have no noise issue since we followed that process (thanks to the talented Mark Toia that suggested the ISo 320 tip)

I think that's some common ground that the 320 and 800 camps are missing. Exposing to the right at 800 is the same as exposing at center (or to the left) at lower ISOs (obviously to varying degrees). While I normally shoot at 800, I noticed that I tend to underexpose (almost subconsciously) - so I tried going for 500, to trick me into exposing correctly (like setting your clock ahead to stay on time).

 

[stu aull]

Les -
impressed that you stay cool inspite all the flack - and have fostered some great dialogue here. My thanks for taking the time and effort. This is a great idea!

Others correctly note some/all of this has been covered before, but I think - esp in the last 4 months or so - we have a LOT of new folks here and some of those older (tho excellent) threads have faded from easy view. No excuse not to do an archive search tho. But that said, and having lurked/read REDUSER since 2010-ish, I am always happy to cruise thru these "new"(old subject) posts to glean maybe some new info. I mean, for you Old Timers who've Been There-Done That, you can always just ignore the thread, right? OR jump in and add to the discussion. As new RED users come on board we are going to see the Merrie-go-round continue...

I will keep poking my head in here to see what I can learn.

Thank you all who contribute.

Stu Aull
S-X #00199 (owned 2-Whole-Months! sooooo much to learn...)
Alaska

 

[William Albertini]

Video Interventions.....YAWN.....

HaHaHa! Very amusing. Someone has a lot of idle time on their hands for trolling the inter-webs. Might I suggest a short primer on Structural Films to help you with your downtime? From there you could move on to video art.
Structural Film:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/articles/structural.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_film
Video Art:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_art
http://www.vdb.org/
http://www.videoart.net/home/

 

[William Albertini]

Les -
impressed that you stay cool inspite all the flack - and have fostered some great dialogue here. My thanks for taking the time and effort. This is a great idea!

Others correctly note some/all of this has been covered before, but I think - esp in the last 4 months or so - we have a LOT of new folks here and some of those older (tho excellent) threads have faded from easy view. No excuse not to do an archive search tho. But that said, and having lurked/read REDUSER since 2010-ish, I am always happy to cruise thru these "new"(old subject) posts to glean maybe some new info. I mean, for you Old Timers who've Been There-Done That, you can always just ignore the thread, right? OR jump in and add to the discussion. As new RED users come on board we are going to see the Merrie-go-round continue...

I will keep poking my head in here to see what I can learn.

Thank you all who contribute.

Stu Aull
S-X #00199 (owned 2-Whole-Months! sooooo much to learn...)
Alaska

Agreed!... and thank you to Scott Crawley for the useful links.