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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Steadicam arm for Letus Helix?

That looks cool Terry =)

As for an arm, coming to gimbals from the steadicam world, I can strongly second what Marc said - test out arms and invest in a quality one. You can hardly go wrong with Tiffen Steadicam or GPI Pro for example, and of course a number of other manufacturers. Make sure you test the setup first, many gimbal setups will be too lightweight for the bigger arms to reach optimum performance. There is a lot of dedication and research put into those professional arms, which is why they have a certain price tag - but they're worth it.
A Laing arm and many other cheap knock offs may be tempting as they cost a fraction of the price, and they look like a Steadicam arm - but thats about all they have in common with a real one. The results won't make you happy. This is my personal opinion of course, but many experienced Steadicam Ops will second it, I'm sure.

Also in my own first tests ot has become apparent that there are some inherent issues with the direct Steadicam Arm / Gimbal combination thatnare going to be interesting to work out. Looking forward to your ideas, this is a really interesting development to try out and watch!
 
Hi there.

There is a very good reason why top steadicam ops dont use direct mounting a 3 axis gimbal , directly on a steadicam arm.

They either use the gore link with it, or they just put One axis roll cage on top of their sled.

I have discussed this and tried to explain it as short as possible here.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...n-depth-test&p=1387449&highlight=#post1387449

Gimbals are really good in what they do, steadicams are also great, its just that they have a few differences on how they are designed to work, and to provide ergonomic control .

And thats why they dont match well, because they have been designed for different logik.

If anyone is interested I can run an analysis in details, and describe the very exact errors you will get out of the combination, pros and cons.

As about steadicam arms.

I strongly suggest to not buy cheap knock offs. 90% of them have more defects than they actually work, and the 10% that does work, is unpredictable if they will all work as they should.

People need to understand that copying technology from photos, with out any experience on this field, just to be able to produce a cheap alternative is in most cases a disaster.

Now days there are many good arms in a very reasonable price.

So if you are to invest on this do it correctly.

it would also help to run a small search on opinions shared from very experienced ops about the direct steadicam adaptation.

Chris Fawcett is one of them and very enthusiastic, Peter Barta is another down under, and there are may posts around this area.

So before you run into buying a cheap chinese steadicam , to adapt your gimbal on directly, better run some research first.

The Helix superiority on just adding 1 axis on your sled is the best choice for steadicam adaptation.

But it also needs many add on gear to be able to do this 100% productive and easy to work with.

Kind regards
 
The arm on this unit is quite sturdy and strong. And, while I am not a steadicam operating expert, it seems to be quite good in terms of its adjustability and performance. The vest really takes two people to fit comfortably in the initial go around, but then it's a simple matter of slipping it on and clipping it. It is comfortable and sturdy but not too heavy.

There seems to be a lot of theories why this or that won't work well with a set-up of this type and I am not going to get into the back and forth. All all I can say is that I was very pleasantly surprised with the footage I shot with the Helix on the 4th axis; very smooth, very steady. I will, of course, get around to the single axis Helix on the sled but, at this point, I am really enamored with this 4th axis approach.
 
Hey Terry , there are no theories , its facts , made after trials, from very experienced operators , working with very high end tools, and some of them also being creators of tools like the exo vest.

Those people , are working actively in real life steadicam operating, and they also use gimbals for the shots that require them. Peter Barta used this extensively in his latest Film, as well as his steadicam rig.

All in all, its not related to the 4th axis, which is a tool that makes sense to control the camera , its related to the physics of every single steadicam vest and arm out there, from the very low end to the very top end.

Now if you want to hear this as constructive talk, I can analyse, but if you want to look at it as sales push, then I will not refer to this again.
Its ok with me either way, no problem.

and Iam saying this because, Iam the one who tried to explain as simple as possible what are the related errors or problems, with out being a too complex post. however I wont refer to this again, maybe its time for people to actually learn by experience and not listen to anyone s opinion.

at the end of the day , its them who will be able to judge if its good or bad for them. Not me.

kind regards
 
Constantine - with all due respect, your facts do come across as a sales pitch. It's just hard to separate the two when you jump on every thread and take every opportunity to point out why your Serene product is fabulous and nothing else will do. I expect we will eventually learn that it cures the common cold. I guess I will keep fumbling along and discover a few things for myself. LOL
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Constantine - with all due respect, your facts do come across as a sales pitch. It's just hard to separate the two when you jump on every thread and take every opportunity to point out why your Serene product is fabulous and nothing else will do. I expect we will eventually learn that it cures the common cold. I guess I will keep fumbling along and discover a few things for myself. LOL
Click to expand...

You are totally out of order.
I said many times that you can mount on steadicam in a different way that makes sense.
you can mount the single axis and be able to do high to low shots and really stable nice footage with out the errors.
Sorry you dont want to understand this or look at this.

I also say to people to test and maybe , if they have steadicam experience they will tell for their selfs.

I also never said that the Serene is the only tool that makes sense. I said that there is combinations of tools that also makes sense, and people use them already with Gimbals , like the Gore link.

Will you come now and say that I try to sell Gorelinks?

Terry perhaps you need to learn a few things before you judge always making people looking suspicious all the time.

Of course we are promoting the Serene because it works. But Iam also brave enough to say other solutions that work, and Iam not selling them or making them. So Iam way more objective than you are, and generally speaking before you start cancelling peoples statements as theories I suggest you learn a few things first and ask around some more people that have more experience than you do with steadicam, and discuss and understand .

Coming and say all the time that we are all making suspicious posts based on sales pitch, doesnt actually add anything useful.

And your big LOL after every ironic comment of yours , makes things worst.

Read my statements again and then you will see that I talk about all options that work. Maybe they dont apply to you, but apply to all steadicam operators out there that make their living from steadicam and arent narrow minded to NOT use other tools.


Have a nice day
 
I am looking into holding the Helix with a steadicam arm/vest combo when using a heavy rig as well.

Constantine , I'm still not fully understanding the Serene product. It is taking up the Y axis walk bounce with a spring loaded arm on the top of the Easyrig. The Easyrig has a cord that is suspended as well: it's pull is created by a mechanically reduced pulley system and a gas spring providing close to constant cord tension. How is the Serene working in the combination, is it locking the Easyrig cord and 'taking over' the spring action ? How is the spring loaded cord from the Easyrig different than the spring loaded cord tension provided by the Easyrig ? Maybe Serene has non linear pull tension better suited for the Y axis bob reduction ?

The main problem of mounting a gimbal on top of a steadicam arm is the way the rig can flop around because of the slop in the many bearing tolerances of the arm joints, is that your point of the problem you mentioned ?
 
Les Dittert said:
I am looking into holding the Helix with a steadicam arm/vest combo when using a heavy rig as well.

Constantine , I'm still not fully understanding the Serene product. It is taking up the Y axis walk bounce with a spring loaded arm on the top of the Easyrig. The Easyrig has a cord that is suspended as well: it's pull is created by a mechanically reduced pulley system and a gas spring providing close to constant cord tension. How is the Serene working in the combination, is it locking the Easyrig cord and 'taking over' the spring action ? How is the spring loaded cord from the Easyrig different than the spring loaded cord tension provided by the Easyrig ? Maybe Serene has non linear pull tension better suited for the Y axis bob reduction ?

The main problem of mounting a gimbal on top of a steadicam arm is the way the rig can flop around because of the slop in the many bearing tolerances of the arm joints, is that your point of the problem you mentioned ?
Click to expand...

Hello Les ,this is not the Serene thread.
And I will not make any more statements, so I would ask you to take your questions to the Serene thread and I will answer them one by one, please feel free to ask any questions there.
At the end of the day, you dont need to know every little detail on how this works, all you need to know is that it really works, as a user.

As for the steadicam problem, its also analysed on the link above. The rig not only flops around being sitting Top heavy on the arm post, and try to fight to equal that force , it also produces bump errors as the arm cannot correct roll axis forces,and other forces that as you say come out of different pivots and tolerances , and since its forced to take this, and there is no steadicam gimbal to compensate there, you will feel many small bumps , and depending on the gimbal you use, and its sturdiness, those little bumbs will be present on as vibrations, bigger or smaller. There are also many other issues, for exampls , many steadicam arms lower end , dont have a tilt adjusting socket block, or they have very bad made blocks that click and bump everytime you make a move, and though this with a normal steadi sled with a steadi gimbal wont show up much, it will show up if you use them with direct Gimbal mounting on the steadicam arm post.

Chris experienced it with a G70 , and a n exo vest, and the only way he could get rid of those errors was to add a gore link which then worked fine.
Other ops with Progpi gear experienced the very same problem and those are the best well made rigs out there.

Also the fact that you have a very limited high to low range, and the fact that you cannot perform moves like Don juan in that position, that makes it very difficult, and other facts like dynamic control, makes the adaptation to have more than 1 problems to stand for a general good over all shot.

Again there are solutions. you dont have to connect this directly. you can even connect the total 3 axis gimbal on a sled.

but if you are happy with the results, and all the above dont bother you, then sure go ahead. No problem

and my advice getting a good arm and vest and a good sled still stands here.
I have tested enough chinese, indian, and other copies, that they are night and day with good engineered steadicam products.
No matter how much people want to believe that this is BS, Iam sorry that I dont agree at all.

And I am not a salesman for them either.
 
There is one issue I am running into when mounting the 4th Axis of the Helix on a Steadicam arm, however, it's easily addressed. When the arm is all the way down for a low angle shot, the horizontal arm of the 4th Axis can hit the arm when panning. A simple adaptor that extends the arm's post a few inches will provide enough clearance to pan freely for low angle shots. Time to fire up the lathe...

Hey Constantine - yeah, the ProVid is telling my age I guess...still have it after 20 years ;-)
 
Paul Kalbach said:
There is one issue I am running into when mounting the 4th Axis of the Helix on a Steadicam arm, however, it's easily addressed. When the arm is all the way down for a low angle shot, the horizontal arm of the 4th Axis can hit the arm when panning. A simple adaptor that extends the arm's post a few inches will provide enough clearance to pan freely for low angle shots. Time to fire up the lathe...

Hey Constantine - yeah, the ProVid is telling my age I guess...still have it after 20 years ;-)
Click to expand...

Haha, Paul, My first rig was a Provid, though I also bought an efp older rig and later a 3A. All had their small issues, the most I have enjoyed to be honest was the EFP because it was a runner and since we also shoot film at the time its was great using it with, SR ARRI, Aatons, and some later 35mm.

Age is wisdom and Iam one of the people who dont believe in whats said, that you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

kind regards

Evolution on those tools comes mostly from older people.
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
Now if you want to hear this as constructive talk, I can analyse, but if you want to look at it as sales push, then I will not refer to this again.
Its ok with me either way, no problem.
Click to expand...

Constantine - you invited me to express my opinion as to whether this sunder like a sales pitch, and I did. The problem with a "sales pitch" is that it tends to lack objective credibility. You may be 100% right - but that "fact" is buried in the complete lack of objectivity that is inherent in your posts. Pointing that out doesn't make you wrong, it just expresses my belief that you aren't being objective. Your passion is great. Just don't expect everyone else to share it.

Many times I have said that your product might be great, it just isn't for me. Like the other gimbals, I don't like it's form factor and don't see myself using it. Others will, and I am sure they will love it like you do. I will continue to seek other solutions and I am not likely to be put off by someone's else's "analysis" when I am seeking those solutions. Sorry you are so upset that I am not as enthusiastic as you about your analyses or your solutions.

EDIT: I just saw your comment about age to Paul... very funny because I can pretty much guarantee I am older than you are.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Constantine - you invited me to express my opinion as to whether this sunder like a sales pitch, and I did. The problem with a "sales pitch" is that it tends to lack objective credibility. You may be 100% right - but that "fact" is buried in the complete lack of objectivity that is inherent in your posts. Pointing that out doesn't make you wrong, it just expresses my belief that you aren't being objective. Your passion is great. Just don't expect everyone else to share it.

Many times I have said that your product might be great, it just isn't for me. Like the other gimbals, I don't like it's form factor and don't see myself using it. Others will, and I am sure they will love it like you do. I will continue to seek other solutions and I am not likely to be put off by someone's else's "analysis" when I am seeking those solutions. Sorry you are so upset that I am not as enthusiastic as you about your analyses or your solutions.

EDIT: I just saw your comment about age to Paul... very funny because I can pretty much guarantee I am older than you are.
Click to expand...

Terry.
for the last time, and this time please read again your posts.
when you write things like

1) you jump on every thread and take every opportunity to point out why your Serene product is fabulous and nothing else will do

Never said that so you are intentionally not reading my posts or you dont observe anything other than try to be smart. I have said several times that there are many more approaches other than the Serene, though you keep insisting somehow I dont. So you are wrong here.

2) I expect we will eventually learn that it cures the common cold.

This is a very ironic comment and you are insulting me personally by taking the piss, as well as its very clear that you dont know how to communicate or respect people at all, and just for the record, many people sell products , that doesnt mean that they arent objective, if that was the case you wouldnt end up having a helix now.

Now to end this one and for all, the comment was flattering to Paul, and it doesnt matter if you are older than me, Iam close to 50 and I have gathered my experience through a profession for the last 25 years.
It doesnt bother me at all, how much you like or come close to use any of our products, I just dont like the way you behave, I dont like you being ironic, for things you havent tried and for things that you dont intent to.

Your comments are a personal insult to start with, and you just go everywhere trying to say that my words dont have any credibility, and Iam not objective.

so get to know this now because this is really annoying and insulting

I have given my personal objective opinion and helped many redusers for more that 50 times already, asking me questions about technology, and tools to choose from, and though I dont produce those tools I always helped them to get something that is worth buying, and helped them in all fields.
Now you can come here and say what ever you like, but keep it civil and stop being ironic in your posts,and most importantly learn how to communicate, because you really out of order and I just proved above from your statements that its you who are missing the facts and put things in my mouth I never did.

and thats the last you will hear from me from now on.

Edit@ my post was referring to the problems a direct mounting of a gimbal has on a steadicam arm post and vest.
I never said anything about the Serene to start with. So again learn how to read.There is even suggestions on how to do it in a better way.I dont see anywhere where I say to people to only buy my product. do you?
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
Hi there.

There is a very good reason why top steadicam ops dont use direct mounting a 3 axis gimbal , directly on a steadicam arm.

They either use the gore link with it, or they just put One axis roll cage on top of their sled.
Click to expand...

Hi Constantine,

I share your opinion that it makes more sense to put a brushless gimbal on top of the steadicam sled rather than directly on the arm. Together with the arm play that will transfer through to the gimbal, if mounted directly on the arm, it's also the increased inertia of the sled/gimbal combo which speaks for this approach.

But I see one problem with a one axis roll cage on top of the sled which is the very small inertia with shorter cameras if the sled is horizontal. I already had the impression that it is very difficult to maintain a proper headroom when I tried the AR on cinec a few years ago. The camera back then was an Alexa but with a shorter camera on one axis systems like the Helix or the upcoming Lynn Axis from Tiffen I think that problem would increase, right? That's why I decided towards using a three axis gimbal on the steadicam.

Best regards,
Andreas

www.portahead.de
 
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Andreas Kielb said:
Hi Constantine,

I share your opinion that it makes more sense to put a brushless gimbal on top of the steadicam sled rather than directly on the arm. Together with the arm play that will transfer through to the gimbal, if mounted directly on the arm, it's also the increased inertia of the sled/gimbal combo which speaks for this approach.

But I see one problem with a one axis roll cage on top of the sled which is the very small inertia with shorter cameras if the sled is horizontal. I already had the impression that it is very difficult to maintain a proper headroom when I tried the AR on cinec a few years ago. The camera back then was an Alexa but with a shorter camera on one axis systems like the Helix or the upcoming Lynn Axis from Tiffen I think that problem would increase, right? That's why I decided towards using a three axis gimbal on the steadicam.



Best regards,
Andreas

www.portahead.de
Click to expand...

Hello Andreas, you are correct but on the other hand, people already use the smaller cameras already with out anything else on the sled.
Camera like the Epic and Scarlet are light but not DSLRs. So yes size and inertia works better on the heavier side , but it also works ok on the Epic capacity . Adding the single axis can only increase this and if that is not enough a simple plate behind it with a V mount and a battery would also do the trick and increase inertia very easily.Just a V mount on a simple rod system behind the roll axis can so this very well, adding a nice camera battery there, and I also invite Hien here if he wants, I can provide my input on this as its easily upgrade able and easy to get done for those that do a 1 axis adaptation on a steadicam, as well as a secondary solution for the monitor viewing which is also a little bummer unless you go the gyro stabilised rotary way.

3 axis works as well, but I personally think that controlling the camera in comparison with your real hand manual control is day and night.
I have seen many ops that when they require to react in NOT planed moves and require to improvise , they react like they would normally try and pan and tilt with forgeting that if they do this rapidly the sled turns but not the gimbal, so they are constantly out of frame.
This needs to be either for very special shots, or 2 man operation, and it doesnt really work well for all around operation, in my opinion.

I have discussed this with many pro ops, and the problem is there so, special moves ok, reactive moves and improvise, not ok, .

Kind regards
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
Hello Andreas, you are correct but on the other hand, people already use the smaller cameras already with out anything else on the sled.
Camera like the Epic and Scarlet are light but not DSLRs. So yes size and inertia works better on the heavier side , but it also works ok on the Epic capacity . Adding the single axis can only increase this and if that is not enough a simple plate behind it with a V mount and a battery would also do the trick and increase inertia very easily.Just a V mount on a simple rod system behind the roll axis can so this very well, adding a nice camera battery there, and I also invite Hien here if he wants, I can provide my input on this as its easily upgrade able and easy to get done for those that do a 1 axis adaptation on a steadicam, as well as a secondary solution for the monitor viewing which is also a little bummer unless you go the gyro stabilised rotary way.

3 axis works as well, but I personally think that controlling the camera in comparison with your real hand manual control is day and night.
I have seen many ops that when they require to react in NOT planed moves and require to improvise , they react like they would normally try and pan and tilt with forgeting that if they do this rapidly the sled turns but not the gimbal, so they are constantly out of frame.
This needs to be either for very special shots, or 2 man operation, and it doesnt really work well for all around operation, in my opinion.

I have discussed this with many pro ops, and the problem is there so, special moves ok, reactive moves and improvise, not ok, .

Kind regards
Click to expand...

Actually I don't think that mounting a battery behind the camera would do the trick. Normally a steadicam operator is used to have the whole sled and camera inertia as resistance for the tilt axis. Now when the sled is horizontal and the camera still upright there is only the inertia of the camera length side left and the whole feeling is changed. At least that's my short experience with the AR and there also where some comments on steadicamforum pointing that headroom issue out in the AR threads. But I also would never operate with the steadicam and a Epic or DSLR with out anything else on the sled. I always add rods and additional weights also to the length side to increase inertia there as well. Even the Alexa feels best to me if there is a large battery behind the camera and a hotswap and a wireless video system in-between :).

Regarding the 3 axis I already know your sentiments against follow mode. But I need to say it's really a question of how well it is set up. It can look very robotic either and I saw that in a lot of bad examples. I always have the expo fairly high, which is a logarithmic curve for it's response characteristic and use follow mode on a regular basis. I do work very often with my gimbals as an operator and almost all the time in follow mode, except for crane or car-to-car shots. Also my portahead customers say that they do use single operator and follow mode as their main way of operating and that they do not work with a second remote operator for handheld shots. See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ExK0fRYdU or the other examples in the news section of www.portahead.de
 
Last edited:
Andreas Kielb said:
Actually I don't think that mounting a battery behind the camera would do the trick. Normally a steadicam operator is used to have the whole sled and camera inertia as resistance for the tilt axis. Now when the sled is horizontal and the camera still upright there is only the inertia of the camera length side left and the whole feeling is changed. At least that's my short experience with the AR and there also where some comments on steadicamforum pointing that headroom issue out in the AR threads. But I also would never operate with the steadicam and a Epic or DSLR with out anything else on the sled. I always add rods and additional weights also to the length side to increase inertia there as well. Even the Alexa feels best to me if there is a large battery behind the camera and a hotswap and a wireless video system in-between :).



Regarding the 3 axis I already know your sentiments against follow mode. But I need to say it's really a question of how well it is set up. It can look very robotic either and I saw that in a lot of bad examples. I always have the expo fairly high, which is a logarithmic curve for it's response characteristic and use follow mode on a regular basis. I do work very often with my gimbals as an operator and almost all the time in follow mode, except for crane or car-to-car shots. Also my portahead customers say that they do use single operator and follow mode as their main way of operating and that they do not work with a second remote operator for handheld shots. See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ExK0fRYdU or the other examples in the news section of www.portahead.de
Click to expand...

Your description of the position of the roll camera axis and camera in various sled positioning vertical to horizontal at 90 degree, does not apply in reality, because generally IT DOESNT MATTER, as it doesnt effect your performance on the roll axis because its stabilised anyway, and it certainly doesnt effect the inertia on the pan or tilt axis to have a noticable effect on performance even with small cameras, as for the battery ,and extra positioning at the back it does make sense , and it works very well increasing inertia for both pan ad tilt axis that you need to work in manual mode when you have just a single axis mounted on your sled.Just for the record I have flown the AR too and though it was an older version that had some electronic problems at the time( due to sensor , and elctronics going crazy) I never had the probs described from you from inertia point of view.The guy who owned it at the time finaly sold it , but the reason was that it wasnt very reliable and he didnt feel that the 40k he spent at the time was worth the effort as the shots that he required to do were hardly using the ARs ability . So thats another factor , that isnt the same with the Helix, because
a) it works
b) its a fraction of the cost
c) its balanced to roll around the centre of lens and roll CG, something that the AR didnt do.
Iam not sure about the Omega as I havent ever tested it, but looking at it looks very much the same case, maybe Iam wrong there.

adding to this , with the AR you might have been experienced a different issue that it might have lead you to possibly think that it was inertia, the fact that it works a little bottom heavy inside the roll cage,to help when tipping over the seld to 180 to have a slight bottom heavy set up, but that will probably push you to go faster down when from 90 to 180 degrees, and that might have lead you to make the wrong thoughts.

I have also explained you many times that the follow mode is personal preference,and Iam not aganst it, its just something that is not working for all the shots , and no matter what you set it up to be more or less reactive, there is no way in this world that it can be as reactive and dynamic as your pan and tilt of your manual hand control. Its very present at every single shot that is done, and just for the record its also very present at the skateboard video you just posted Iam afraid

1,08 quite noticable

1,15 -1,20 very bad lag on the pan axis and bad framing , obvious that is lag following your skater and most obvious of the other time point

Most of your other shots are linear fwd following, or linear side following and they dont prove any dynamic shots either Andreas,

All in all I have also explained on the steadicam FB as well, that even so the lag is present, the tool is very useful for many shots and can be useful to get to do shots that a normal steadicam could not do, using a single or a 3axis gimbal on your steadicam sled.

There are pros and cons in both configurations , but there are more cons on the 3 axis configuration due to the NONE need to carry a 3 axis on a steadicam post versus the shots you normally do at 98% of normal steadicam operation, and you left with 2% of special shots, mostly inserts in places you cannot snick a normal steadicam or an AR type, but very NOT common to be asked to perform in most cases.

You will have to understand that special tools are always needed and Iam all for this, but you also have to understand that a steadicam operator cannot use the 3 axis gimbal for most of his work shots due to the extra weight complexity and not necessity for his work, not unless is asked to do this very special shot that requires it.

That is my personal experience and preference ,and it doesnt have to be the case for everyone,but thats also the description of many other ops I have talked too and what they dont like. however some other dont mind it. Its preference and its certainly noticeable, never the less , there isnt one single operator you would ask what he would choose if he could have the chance to do dynamic shots, wip pans etc with a gimbal and say that he wouldnt like to have the feature and full control. He would choose it over follow mode lag any time.

perhaps technology gets there soon enough. we will see.

kind regards
 
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