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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

State of the Indie Union

Roberto Lequeux

Roberto Lequeux

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First of all let me begin by apologizing for the wall of text.

I am trying to gauge what other people are doing and what they are planning on doing in the near future as I prepare for a winter movie. So I think I need to put it all out there or I won't get the sort of all encompassing conversation I am hoping for:

[RANT] I am just having a bit of a hard time with the whirlwind of post developments up in the air at the moment.

New color science, RED Rocket acceleration, RED Rocket dual link output, 32-bit floating in Vegas 9, FCP 7 + Color 1.5, the possibility of building myself a 4.3Ghz Nehalem system that will run all editing and even most advanced color correction in real time, the possibility of that same system being able to run After Effects in a way that I've never experienced before... it just feels like we are reaching a boiling point... SOON.

Throw in to the confusion my hopes to see a dual Nehalem fully overclock capable Skulltrail motherboard before the end of the year. Just imagine that with a RED Rocket.

It feels like I could do so much "myself" (me + well payed professional friends) and only outsource the most tricky VFX to a post house. However I have no friends that do Vegas... so I am all alone there.

_ I am mostly tempted by the possibility of a Hackintosh, but the details are driving me insane atm... I've never done one, but I hear it is simple and stable. I have 90% of the hardware picked.

I could run a dual OS boot giving me the flexibility to decide on a post path last minute, or even try to work on both OS's and so something like FCP editing, Vegas Sound, Color 1.5 for grading decisions and finish by finding an experienced colorist with his own personal Scratch (or what have you) station.

I can build the computer in a day, and installing the second OS might take me just an afternoon if all goes well, a couple of weekends if I can't figure things out fast. The issue is that I would need to build now so I can test and make sure we are fully operational in Mac OS. Problem is there is no FCP 7 or Vegas 9 with the new RED Rocket SDK implemented. YET...

_ A single Quad running Bootcamp would give me a system with about 75% the hardware speed and cost a few thousand more. I don't know anything about Bootcamp so if someone can tell me if it works slower or the same, or if has any compatibility issues with software I'd love to hear about it.

_ A dual Nehalem Apple costs well more than double what this super silent watercooled dual OS monster would cost me, and it would still run certain (likely most) apps slower than said single Quad monster... it should render faster though. So it sort of twists my arm into wanting to do the dual boot monster even more.

Add to that a market in LA where finishing in something like Scratch is incredibly affordable. But a limited budget for finishing on Scratch means I would have to live with what I can get out of the guy in the time he'll give us, and I have to live with that... I would be worried to add, change, or tweak on top of his work and risk making those shots stand out from the rest... [/RANT]

:angelsad2:
 
Well.
My advice could be:

If you are going to to deal with VFX externally and all you´re doing is editing, and color grading (and having in mind that you´re shooting RED and that you´re going to have a RED Rocket™ card) you don´t need any kind of super computer.

In the setups you´re talking about, you´re spending more money in the processors than in any other thing, and the my point of view is that you won´t need such fast processors at all.

Editing will be fully powered by the RED Rocket™ card. And color grading will be performed by your graphic card and the redrocket, unless you´re grading in AE or Vegas, which will benefit from a faster processors.

My budget would go for storage. Not only big but fast. Get SDDs for the OS and cache drives, and get 1 or 2 fast raid systems, so everything is not only back up but also is not a bottleneck when working with big files.

On our Scratch system, the real difference was the fast raid and the powerfull graphic card. Combined they deliver the realtime 2K and 3K color grading.

I´m a Vegas fan and i use it for everything. Editing a 2h movie on vegas might be tricky, because so far Vegas doesn´t like huge edits or very complex timelines. As long as you stay under 10 minutes everything is fine, but when i had to edit or render +20 minutes it became unstable. I haven´t tried this on 9.0a r in vegas 64buts so things might have changed. But it was quite annoying having render crashes after 2hours of rendering and 70% completed.

About big projects finished in Vegas, well, actually all big projects were finished in Scratch. But in the same way i wouldn´t finish a project in FCP having a Scratch. I´m confident about delivering the Best quality out from Vegas.

And remember you can always jump from Vegas to AE easily.

On a project i´m working now at (~100k €) i´ll be editing in vegas but i haven´t decided about finishing yet.

I would get a 4 core machine instead of an 8 core machine if i can use that money to get a better screen for example.

Note: I´m actually running a 08mac pro with bootcam and vista64. Bootcamp makes your mac just like a PC. So no issues at all with any software. In fact i had Scratch running on this machine for a while with excellent results.
 
I am counting on having two fast RAID-6's set up. One being 16 bay monster, the other an internal scratch with 7 x 1.5TB drives. Both over 600MB/s minimum, and fastest SSDs for the OS. The only problems I see is possible compatibility issues when booting in two different OS's or with bootcamp. And I don't yet know how I would hook up the external other than using the external eSATA port. Or if there would be formatting issues in the different systems.

But the storage budget is separate. Also separate are the $5k for a 50" 11-series for use with dual link from the RED Rocket and the cost of the RED Rocket itself.

You just touched on something I don't know enough about. When you say that grading is handled by the GPU, is that in FCP and Color? I know Vegas is CPU based but I know very little about FCP. And isn't AE is all CPU based?
 
I just HATE overpaying Apple for slow hardware... but I should say that while I am fighting it with everything I got, I will most likely end up with one of their horribly underclocked POS mac pros (2.93Ghz?!?! are you @!$% kidding me?!?!) in order to avoid possible issues with a hackintosh... but if I get my way...

One way or an other, regardless of what hardware I get, I most likely won't find both an Editor with enough feature experience and a Grader willing to figure out a way to get the project out of Vegas and into their system. So I guess I should start getting used to the idea of working in FCP + Color. Not that I dread that and I am certainly willing to pay Apple the small amount of $ they ask in return, zero complaining there.

So... what video card would it take to grade RT in Color when using a RED Rocket? Would one of the 285 GTX's do the trick? Or would we need something a bit more fancy? I know that I am not going to need to get the grading done right, but I want to create without getting a headache from either getting the unbelievably dreadful stutter or not being able to get a FEEL for what the finished product will be like with a grade on top of it, especially for things like day-for-dawn and night stuff. I know that the grade should not matter for the story, but I want to get a feel, and this feel I talk about is especially important when screening a cut on a 50" to a producer.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
New color science, RED Rocket™™™™™ acceleration, RED Rocket™™™™™ dual link output, 32-bit floating in Vegas 9, FCP 7 + Color 1.5, the possibility of building myself a 4.3Ghz Nehalem system that will run all editing and even most advanced color correction in real time, the possibility of that same system being able to run After Effects in a way that I've never experienced before... it just feels like we are reaching a boiling point... SOON.
Click to expand...

A boiling point for tech? Nah, it just sounds like you have reached the end point on your credit line. :001_tt1: Seriously though, Spending too much on bleeding edge tech has long been the biggest mistake that many independent video houses make. Be disciplined and only buy what you need. Rent the rest. Be certain that you have projects that will pay those bills locked in before you lay out any capital, and be sure to leave some profit for the company.

If this is your hobby, entertainment or similar passion, all of that goes into the toilet. Always evaluate your production purchases on the want:need, work:hobby scale, and be brutally honest with yourself. Your survival could depend upon it. :-)

All The Best,
Scott
 
Get a quad i7. Fast drives. Standard graphic card.

It´s going to cost you less than 2K.
Risk installing hackintosh. I think you´ll be success.
Again, for offline editing and/or color grading you don´t need superfast fast or many processors. All that money is going to be wasted.

Use the rest of the money in the production itself.
Or buy a good iMac. Then you´ll have 2 systems and still cheaper than the octoMac.
 
Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso said:
Get a quad i7. Fast drives. Standard graphic card.

It´s going to cost you less than 2K.
Risk installing hackintosh. I think you´ll be success.
Again, for offline editing and/or color grading you don´t need superfast fast or many processors. All that money is going to be wasted.

Use the rest of the money in the production itself.
Or buy a good iMac. Then you´ll have 2 systems and still cheaper than the octoMac.
Click to expand...

Wait, so you think I should go with an hackintosh? I must say, I do feel confident about it.

I am talking about all of that mess with the intention of on-lining the whole thing, but it seems that would only happen with RED Rocket being very well integrated into FCP. So the jury is still out on that so I'll try to stop being overexcited about it for the time being.

Is AE CPU intensive?

Scott C. said:
A boiling point for tech? Nah, it just sounds like you have reached the end point on your credit line. :001_tt1: Seriously though, Spending too much on bleeding edge tech has long been the biggest mistake that many independent video houses make. Be disciplined and only buy what you need. Rent the rest. Be certain that you have projects that will pay those bills locked in before you lay out any capital, and be sure to leave some profit for the company.

If this is your hobby, entertainment or similar passion, all of that goes into the toilet. Always evaluate your production purchases on the want:need, work:hobby scale, and be brutally honest with yourself. Your survival could depend upon it. :-)

All The Best,
Scott
Click to expand...

I am not sure if I should laugh or be offended. Can you tell me how much it would cost to rent the hardware necessary dump the footage, have playback and test looks on set for 6-7 weeks? Sure, a laptop and some transcoding might do, but what about being able to see a the real look of things with RED CINE X when you are shooting day for night or day for dawn? Or shooting night exteriors? Now add the cost of renting the stuff for several months of on-line post. And at the end of the day we'll still have assets to liquidate on top it. And of course I could cut 1080p 4:2:2, screw it, 480p... sure... but I don't want to have to screen my cut to a producer on a 50" like that. I want him to get the FEELING, and to ensure that I need to show him something that has a decent grade decision on top of it.

And how many movies have you watched that ran out of money in post and ended up with half assed edits, color... audio!

Do you know what our budget is? Distribution? Genre?

Also, I feel that being a non-pro colorist (cause I am not), it is even more important to have the ability to grade quickly. The last thing anyone should want is for me to start hating the footage because I am fighting it.

But don't worry I am not pissed. :cheers2: I just wished you had the tact to realize it might be offensive to use the word "hobby" let alone use it while also discussing my "survival". Computers are a hobby of mine, but that is not what you said.

All The Best,
Roberto L.
 
I've considered the hackintosh route.. but the bottom line is that apple will keep updating software and the hackintoshes will be left behind by a few months.

I wouldn't risk that money.

My understanding is that the red rocket will not accelerate footage in color/fcp.
Its pure R3D processing.. although you'd think it would help in color?

the GTX285 has near zero driver support making the 4870 somehow still a superior card.. which boggles my mind.

so sure you can online the project but I wouldn't do it in a client driver environment.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
I am not sure if I should laugh or be offended....
Do you know what our budget is? Distribution? Genre?
I just wished you had the tact to realize it might be offensive to use the word "hobby" let alone use it while also discussing my "survival".
Click to expand...

Laugh please, Roberto. It was only petit humor. :cheers2: I obviously don't know your budget, who is paying the bills, or any of that. This is why I said "IF this is your hobby" [Not to suggest that it is.] or entertainment then you needn't be concerned with getting your money back. You are apparently spending some cash here, so I was just offering some friendly caution, albeit ignorant of your situation. I've seen folks overextend themselves personally on business ventures that never made money, and it is a sad thing.

I am sorry if you felt offended, and that you felt the need to tell me that I have no tact. I always struggle to be clear in my written correspondence. I'll keep at it. Might I suggest that you read more carefully before you allow yourself to become upset?

Peace,
Scott C.
 
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