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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Standards: Good, Bad & Ugly

Blair S. Paulsen

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There's a good chance that tomorrow (or very soon thereafter) RED will provide specifics on not just the RedRay players but also specifications for what to feed it. It will, at least briefly, be the de facto standard for 4K distribution outside of the DCI spec. It got me thinking about how technical standards are like unions; great intentions, hidden agendas, mixed results. IAC, at this point in the development of our civilization, control of the technological high ground is serious high stakes capitalism (look up cellular bandwidth auctions on Google).

We'll start with the ugly, because its everywhere. Over compressed MPEG-2 streams purporting to be HD at under 2mb/s is bad enough but as a RU poster noted recently most of the time that compression step is one of several that happen between mastering and viewing. (sarcasm alert) Aren't we lucky that we have standards to insure consistently excellent picture quality…

That gets us to bad. I'd like to blame the greedy bastards who listened to their customers and delivered more variety and greater convenience because the surveys said that's what they cared about. Picture quality was always down the list, then of course when people are buying cars they usually pay more attention to the paint color than the brakes, but I digress. I suppose they could improve their service delivery capabilities - launch more satellites, run more miles of fiber, etc but that might cut into this years bonuses…

The good, we are at the dawn of the 4K era for mass distribution. We can do it better this time than when the ATSC created 18 formats for HD (thanks for clearing things up). I don't know any specifics about what format(s) RedRay will support, whether RED is planning to propagate a proprietary authoring tool and whether the larger industry will adapt any format that has RED anywhere near it (evidently when you disrupt an industry it pisses some people off, who knew?).

My sincere hope is for an easy to access and widely adopted 4K distribution format with at least 10 bit color, a strict limit on how much it can be compressed and a file interchange capacity that makes recompressing unnecessary.

This is RED's moment to shake up distribution with RedRay and whatever codec it utilizes. If the bit rate to quality equation hits the sweet spot it has the potential to bring the 4K future closer to the present faster than anything else.

IMO RED has another important card to play that could really accelerate the availability of high quality content for the 4K universe. We need a general duty, open source, mastering format for 4K that hits the sweet spot between quality and data load. I dread a future where 4K mastering is either DPX or OpenEXR for the high end and some >50mb/s version of what should be a distribution format like AVC, H.264, etc for everybody else. Right now ProRes 4444 at 4K and CineForm 4K are the mastering options and each poses significant risk for shelf assets due to proprietary control.

Perhaps mastering to the distribution format in the Red Ray spec will have to do and maybe they will offer a higher bit rate variant that would be legitimate "master" quality...

Cheers - #19
 
IMO RED has another important card to play that could really accelerate the availability of high quality content for the 4K universe. We need a general duty, open source, mastering format for 4K that hits the sweet spot between quality and data load. I dread a future where 4K mastering is either DPX or OpenEXR for the high end and some >50mb/s version of what should be a distribution format like AVC, H.264, etc for everybody else. Right now ProRes 4444 at 4K and CineForm 4K are the mastering options and each poses significant risk for shelf assets due to proprietary control.

Blair, I totally agree this would be awesome. On the other hand, we've been waiting for REDCODE RGB since 2007. We're still waiting for a REDCODE that normal CPUs can play back at full quality.

So I think that it'll be for mastering:

High: OpenEXR, 4:4:4, uncompressed

Middle: OpenEXR, 4:2:2, light B44a compression

Low:
- Sony XAVC (600megabit/sec for 60fps) 10bit 4:2:2
- ProRes4444 10bit
- Avid DNxHD 10bit (when they make a 4K version which I'm sure is coming)
- Cineform

For 4K distribution... Sony 4K TVs will have distribution built in / bundled, PS4 will play 4K, Xbox 720 will do 4K, Apple TV, Android, PC, Mac will all do 4K...

I am not 100% sure on RedRay's place in the market if the TVs can just stream 4K on their own.

Very few people will care if it's H.265 or some H.264 flavor instead of REDCODE and is slightly more compressed.

What they will like is that they can watch the movie on their TV, on their tablet, on their phone, on their laptop, their Android / Apple / Cable box.

At this point I don't think that a proprietary REDCODE solution can win.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Great thread Blair!

Personally, I've been appalled by HD broadcast compression at times. I've been in homes where it has been so bad it actually made me feel bad for the people who had spent thousands on their top of the line HD TV. I have also seen very acceptable signals, especially when viewed at appropriate distances. There's no consistency. I'm by no means a broadcast television expert but I believe these types of problems have existed for a long time. Remember NTSC (never twice the same color)? In an ideal world we would all see our beautifully shot/color corrected images play exactly the same as we see them on our monitors/screens. Unfortunately the track record has been such that our images go through so many chains that by the time they get to the consumer it's anyone's guess what it will look like. With luck it will be a close approximate image to the one we sent out. More likely it will be a shell of its former self.

In a lot of ways, I suspect 4K/Ultrad HD will be no different. Compromises will be made, pixels will be manipulated, pipelines will be determined not just on quality but on money and we will probably have some level of disappointment with the final results. Having said that, I'm hoping that perhaps the fact that 4k/Ultra HD by it's very nature brings along with it the potential for amazing quality that broadcasters/web delivery entities will see the benefits of going with codecs that offer high quality at efficient bitrates. If what we have seen from RedRay in its brief incarnations is any indication, it's possible to do this. How it's implemented, how politics could get in the way is a whole other story. Let's hope in the end the consumer wins. Let's hope they get more quality than expected without paying a huge price in bandwidth. Let's hope the industry gets this one right.
 
(snip) for mastering:

High: OpenEXR, 4:4:4, uncompressed

Middle: OpenEXR, 4:2:2, light B44a compression

Low:
- Sony XAVC (600megabit/sec for 60fps) 10bit 4:2:2
- ProRes4444 10bit
- Avid DNxHD 10bit (when they make a 4K version which I'm sure is coming)
- Cineform

Bruce Allen www.boacinema.com

OpenEXR on the high end is great, if you have the budget.

If the XAVC codec is widely supported by the likes of AME, Compressor, etc as well as Sony Vegas et al AND finishing solutions like Scratch, Baselight, Resolve, etc then it might be just the ticket. Does anyone know if the code is published and open?

Bruce, you have mentioned Open EXR with B44a compression before. What tools support that codec? Can it be read by the major NLEs and finishing systems? Is the encoding a resource hog? Any info and links greatly appreciated. I would be great to have all that lovely metadata the EXR container supports as we migrate into ever more integrated data management protocols throughout the industry. Light compression that makes OpenEXR usable for workstations that have at least 500MB/s IO would make it far more viable. Sadly, as it stands, the need for 1,500MB/s read speeds makes 4K OpenEXR a heavy iron only beast.

Cheers - #19
 
I don't know any specifics about what format(s) RedRay will support, whether RED is planning to propagate a proprietary authoring tool and whether the larger industry will adapt any format that has RED anywhere near it (evidently when you disrupt an industry it pisses some people off, who knew?).
I think the industry is more inclined to lean towards open source tools and open source formats, particularly with DPX and Open EXR. SMPTE would probably have final say on how and whether RedRay would be used for theatrical distribution, but the studios will be the ones who'll have to be convinced that the format is secure enough (and free from piracy concerns) to allow it beyond anything but festival screenings.

It'd be interesting to know if the Academy, through their Digital Cinema Initiative effort, has made contact with Red (or vice-versa):

http://www.dcimovies.com/

These are the people who designed and implemented DCP -- and that's had some quirks and problems, to say the least.
 
I always thought modern free-to-air SD digital on LCD can look a bit sad compared to good CRT analogue TV reception but I have been soundly put down if I have said so. Maybe I am not so wrong after all.
 
P3 for TV, P3 for TV, P3 for TV, ...

P3 for TV, P3 for TV, P3 for TV, ...

Last time I checked in with the SMPTE crew they were looking at extensions to the DCI spec to accommodate HFR, S3D & 4K. Key concern, the 250mb/s bit rate cap for DCPs can't support suitable quality for anything north of 2D 4K 24fps and S3D 2K 24fps. Assuming current coding efficiency there is simply too little info per pixel to maintain "theatrical level" color bit depth and precision. IIRC they were exploring 400mb/s and 1gb/s as encoding options. Clearly Jackson and Cameron are adding a sense of urgency to the proceedings.

The folks at SMPTE and the DCI understand that the sheer size of the theatrical screen can reveal subtle artifacts and banding that can be ignored for other exhibition targets. Created from 16bit TIFFs the proscribed 12bit JPEG2000 format offers a wide gamut color space known as P3 that is much nicer than HD standard rec709. Its actually one of the key facets I am watching as potential 4K distribution formats for the home emerge. Mastering and distributing in P3 with a rec709 LUT flag for those displays unable to do wide/deep/xyz/P3 would seem like the smart play as the content would be ready as the display industry replacement cycle gradually puts more P3 compliant devices in use.

The reason I am ringing this bell right now, is that design choices for the second generation of more affordable (relatively speaking) 4K consumer displays are already being made. We must rise up and toss away the yoke of rec709, its 2012 for crying out loud. Its worth noting that some viewing studies show a greater response to improvements in color rendition than resolution gains when asking general questions about perceived IQ. Whatever the average delivered resolution is in the first years of the 4K era (optics/physics/etc realities) better color is, IMO, essential to the immersivity that makes 4K deeply compelling. As a visual artist shooting RAW, a bigger and more nuanced color target adds creative possibilities that are most welcome. P3 for TV, ...

Cheers - #19
 
Field report

Field report

Now that we know what standard .RED actually is, I am greatly relieved. While the initial rec 709 limitation is sub-optimal I can't quibble with the logic of starting there. I also can't blame RED for rec 709 being the only supported color space on every currently shipping consumer 4K device I've seen.

I sat in the 2nd row of the Shot on Red 4K shorts program last night at the LA Downtown Independent theater to "pixel peep" the new format. For reference the projector was the 4K Barco DLP and the biggest image flaw was the perforated screen pattern!

It remains to be seen (sic) how the various parts of the .RED pipeline operate once the encoder is in the wild. Render times, hardware requirements, mixed source formats, sound sync, etc for the encoding step are likely to be issues out of the gate. How quickly will it become a reasonably fast and affordable process?

Based on what was shown last night I no longer have any reservations about a 20mb/s bit rate codec being able to do justice to 4K motion imagery via RedRay.

Cheers - #19
 
If we are talking broadcast TV standards, the most important thing I see would be image processing in compressed space. Currently it all starts with the play out server that gets the broadcast master. That is decoded and sent over SDI and run through live CG for alerts, overlays, station bugs and such. Then it gets encoded to satellite delivery format. Over the air broadcast or cable then repeats this decode/encode process to allow for local station ID, alerts and program insertion. Ideally this whole chain should not require the decode/re-encode phase because that is where resolution and color depth are lost. The horrible HD broadcasts mentioned probably have 2-4 low bitrate mpeg encode steps after play out from a low bit rate master.

This is one reason color space for TVs hasn't mattered much for a lot of people. I would love to see a satisfactory solution to this problem, maybe that includes a fundamental change in delivery methods, but I think there will still be a need for local content aggregation and subscription free delivery. What do you guys think of regarding the future of satellite, cable and over the air delivery? Is it on its way out, or here to stay? Maybe the same broadcasters will just move to internet delivery, although that would require a significant overhaul of the internet infrastructure.

20mbps is awfully close to the bandwidth of a 6Mhz UHF channel, although most broadcasters cram several channels in it. Since broadcast usually is meant for the small screen, how about a .red derived broadcast standard with 5-10mbps data rates and .red derived color depth. Would it be possible to have the streaming format encode station bug and alert overlay information along with the stream for the TV set to render? I don't know if red really wants to tackle this type of delivery though. Live is just so much more complicated then video on demand, I think they are the only ones with the intellectual property and talent to make it happen the right way though.
 
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