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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sound ?!

Hi there, gentlemen. . .

As of the present time, I'm planning on going from my Schoeps booms and Countryman/Lectrosonics lavs to a Sound Devices 442 field mixer and then into the RED via the 4 outputs on the 442. This will mean that my audio will be fully synched up without have the hassles of synching audio to video off of a 744T 4-track recorder.

Can the RED files be imported with the audio directly into Final Cut Studio 2 (as I currently do with my HVX footage)?

Thanks very much.

Stephen
 
Remember that the 4 direct outputs on the 442 are PLF outputs so only the small trim will affect the volume not the big knobs or the master fader.
 
Are you talking about the 4 TA3 outputs on the input side of the 422.
I didn't know you could easily adjust the gains on them?


post: Anders....snap!
 
Anders and David. . .

You are, of course, quite right about the TA3 connectors being "pre-fader, post-trim, post-input-limiter, post high-pass filter." But that's okay. I would seldom "ride gain" on most shots, rather, setting the trim levels (which ranges from +22dB to +60db) and putting on the (very good) limiter to catch the peaks. The large gain knob is only good for a total of 15dB of gain (range: 0 to 15dB), anyway. Given that the RED has 24 bit audio, I am gambling that one can safely "under gain" the signals and still preserve very high-quality audio on "normal signals" without clipping on the transients.

Or am I wrong?

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Can the RED files be imported with the audio directly into Final Cut Studio 2 (as I currently do with my HVX footage)?

Stephen
Click to expand...

Yes they can...

Jim
 
I think you guys are going to find it very difficult to control 4 channels of audio in a menu driven volume system while shooting. Almost all the current HD cameras actually record 4 channels of audio (HDCAM can be 8, HDCAMSR can be 12), but they usually are set up to record the camera mic (in stereo) on 3/4. In docs this is a great thing--esp if the camera and sound person are split up--it's a whole extra perspective and stereo ambience--I frequently use it in sound cutting when available. However, to really have that onboard mic or other input work well for the shooter, some kind of dynamics control (limiter or AGC) is needed, as is some kind of easily accessable level control (like the recessed knob on the front of many ENG-style cameras, or those on the back of an HVX). As I said in an earlier post, the idea that a single set-and-forget level is going to work for you for anything other than a sit-down interview is a hallucination, 24 bit headroom or no. I'm very much looking forward to hearing Red's audio, but it if makes as good audio recordings as even an inexpensive digital audio recorder it will be the first video camera to have ever done so. There are a lot of compromises involved in trying to preamplify and convert analog audio within a digital device as busy as a Red camera.

Philip Perkins CAS
 
jbeale said:
The "no physical audio level knobs" issue has been discussed at some length several months ago. I haven't heard anyone liking it, but there are workarounds. Apparently a yet-to-be-offered control grip that connects via USB will have some programmable knobs, which may be used for audio levels. Maybe there will be a market for a cable that combines mini-to-std. XLR plus an attenuator knob.

I'm guessing Red's design philosophy went something like this: on a big production, you'll be taking a feed from a mixer and they can adjust levels at the mixer. On a small production with no soundman, your camera op. is going to have their hands full just running the camera and they aren't going to be riding levels anyway, they'd be set up on the initial sound check and not touched thereafter. (In practice, the latter situation is how I've always worked.)
Click to expand...

If the control grip has knobs or even responsive +/- toggle buttons that can be programmed to control input gain, that would be MOST appreciated. I am a one-woman crew on many jobs, having to look out for audio and video at the same time (doing dance performance shoots, for example). While I do my best to set one level before a performance based on peaks, occasionally those levels are not completely accurate/optimal and adjustment up or down is required at some point on the fly. Easy enough if I can toggle some dedicated buttons or knobs. Not otherwise.

Can someone at RED verify gain control accessibility via the supergrip?
 
How about...

How about...

If I was a 3rd party developer with serious audio chops and industrial design skills I would be looking very hard at marketing a slick solution for the RedOne. Something along the lines of the mini BNC to regular BNC adapter that ET made could be awesome.

Black box that mounts on the camera with 4 mini XLRs on the back, 4 full size XLRs on the front and manual pots on the bottom or sides. You use the menu driven gain control to set up your levels with the manual pots at 12 o'clock and a tone generator. During takes you just ride the pots as needed. Seems simple enough to me.

Looking forward to placing my order...
 
Finner said:
If I was a 3rd party developer with serious audio chops and industrial design skills I would be looking very hard at marketing a slick solution for the RedOne. Something along the lines of the mini BNC to regular BNC adapter that ET made could be awesome.

Black box that mounts on the camera with 4 mini XLRs on the back, 4 full size XLRs on the front and manual pots on the bottom or sides. You use the menu driven gain control to set up your levels with the manual pots at 12 o'clock and a tone generator. During takes you just ride the pots as needed. Seems simple enough to me.

Looking forward to placing my order...
Click to expand...

Sounds Devices would rock the house on this one! They are a smaller US-based company. Someone should approach them with this idea. There should be enough Red's to warrant such a design, they already have all the necessary components.
 
kosmos3d said:
here is one config, mounting mic off universal mount in front.

it is what i am using today here in the middle east...
Click to expand...

Ah! No fair! Shawn has wanted a RedDrive, especially now that my pins are jammed up on my CF bay...
 
I have been feeding my Sound Devices 322 and my Sanken CS-1 into my Red and giving Stuart and Rob feedback on how the levels look in FCP. I have to say even if you think you are clipping in camera it is safe in Final Cut. Ideally we are working to get the Digital VU's in camera to behave just like Final Cut's VU's.
Every time you enable an audio channel there is an additional channel visible in the veiwfinder. You have Mic - Line - and Phantom 48V Mic available and you also have trim to match your microhone level. Everything isn't fully developed yet but I am amazed how fast the tech team responds to real world test input. Let us know if you find anything we should look at.
 
"Due to the significantly higher precision and dynamic range of 24 bit sampling, input stage limiters or AGC’s are not provided by the RED-ONE camera. The digitized audio data can be considered as high dynamic range RAW sound information that is complimentary to the high dynamic range RAW video information."

I have 24 bit audio recorders with 44.1, 48 & 96 kHz sample rates and they will overload. It's ugly. A limiter prevents overloads and audio environments are difficult at best to deal with.

With no accessible audio dials and no limiter, it seems RED will force the usage of expensive audio equiptment and crew. Why?

The old DVX could handle audio on the fly and had a built in input limiter for those nasty unexpected loud events that happen...often.

Is this an improvement?
 
10s said:
With no accessible audio dials and no limiter, it seems RED will force the usage of expensive audio equiptment and crew.
Click to expand...

I agree that some kind of limiter action is a benefit, and probably an expected feature on pro gear. For event work capturing faint live voice levels and loud PA systems in the same take from the same mic, yes, normally I want to adjust a knob. But maybe Red's audio is clean enough to "set and forget" even in that scenario? Sounds like they are claiming it is. I guess we'll find out pretty soon.
 
ibloom said:
It's nice until picture lock aye, do a little mixing and cutting in FCP. But later your going to autoduck it to protools right. The sound guys I work with are pretty finicky about their recorders and pre-amps, we bypass in camera sound when possible. Red's great, but Red's not an audio company. Maybe Jarred needs to post a picture of the audio guy at Red (holding an Uzi while riding waterskis or something).

Ibloom
Click to expand...

no autoduck anymore for me Ian. take a close look at the tools from Gallery - http://www.gallery.co.uk/

(iXML Sound Roll Import - XML-PRO also includes a powerful function to batch import iXML compliant BWF audio files. The iXML metadata (including timestamp, roll, scene, take and notes) is translated in to an XML file which imports an entire sound roll in to FCP, in one simple operation.)

Trust when I say I work some of the most finicky sound guys in NY as well - and two of them will be testing workflows and Red audio in January. As a matter of fact - I will most likely spend a full day over at Gotham with all their guys - try some mics and mixers too.

One thing I often see with soundguys - they are VERY defensive about THEIR OWN GEAR. Often, more close-minded than old school "film only" shootin' DPs. I like to work with the best I can afford - with the most "open" minds.

We are VERY excited about using Metacorder on our next feature, and seeing the best way to use it with RED. You should look closely at that -
 
Offhollywood said:
no autoduck anymore for me Ian. take a close look at the tools from Gallery - http://www.gallery.co.uk/

Trust when I say I work some of the most finicky sound guys in NY as well - and two of them will be testing workflows and Red audio in January. As a matter of fact - I will most likely spend a full day over at Gotham with all their guys - try some mics and mixers too.

One thing I often see with soundguys - they are VERY defensive about THEIR OWN GEAR. Often, more close-minded than old school "film only" shootin' DPs. I like to work with the best I can afford - with the most "open" minds.

We are VERY excited about using Metacorder on our next feature, and seeing the best way to use it with RED. You should look closely at that -
Click to expand...

Hmmm... we only roll Nagra analog Mark. My guy has a stockpile of 1/4 inch tape that we calculated to last until his retirement. :shiftyph34r:

I'll look into those tools. I'm glad to see you handing out the trade secrets freely now. :wink: I'll try to reciprocate. (We should talk syncing apps)
Let me know about your gotham experience, I need to get my guy up to speed, even if that means we make an informed decision not to go in-camera.

Ian

(seriously the first film I UPM'd was Nagra analog, and I miss listening to the dailies... dearly).
 
ibloom said:
I'll look into those tools. I'm glad to see you handing out the trade secrets freely now. :wink: I'll try to reciprocate. (We should talk syncing apps).
Click to expand...

LOL!

I try to walk that line carefully. I like to share and I also like to point people to good technology.

Offhollywood is going to change a LOT in the new year.

Our new facility we are building has a huge component that is targeted to people shooting RED. We want to be a "safe place" for ANYONE who wants to work with RED cameras, weather it is their own camera, a rented camera, or one of ours. So, yeah, we will ALWAYS be testing stuff we can't talk about and creating our own proprietary stuff - but we will now, tied to building the new facility, step up our efforts to help producers, production companies and DPs who are interested in shooting their projects with the RED.

And we will have full 5.1 edit, design & mixing - so, we are totally all about finding the best audio workflows based on new tools.
 
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