Sony's S-Log Campaign

[Justen Nguyen]

Sony pmw f3 s-log upgrade will make you sell your red epic

A friend linked me this the other day. Article title aside, what do you guys think about the hype behind this whole s-log movement? The second video linked in the article is my point of focus. I like that Sony is upping their camera technology, the f3 looks like it'd be a decent alternative for those in the high end prosumer camera market for eng and efp purposes. But the claims and the over connotation from the video and the talk make it feel like an over exaggerated marketing ploy to me. What they are doing does not seem that revolutionary or extraordinary to me. But in juxtaposition to what red is doing and striving for, it's almost laughable. Your thoughts? No real disrespect meant, let's keep it classy.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

For the record Sony's F3 camera isn't a "Prosumer" camera it's a professional camera, I've watched the videos before and it looks like it's producing some really nice pictures. The people who made the video seem to be very happy with the camera as well, I'm not sure that if I owned an EPIC I would sell it and buy an F3 over S-LOG but I think outside of reduser.net people are genuinely excited about this camera.
Looks like this camera could be a big deal in low budget filmmaking, television and perhaps documentary as well so the potential of the F3 should never be underestimated and saying it's laughable is kind of disrespectful.
Sony have a path which seems to be 4k in high budget and 1080 in low budget, Red seem to be moving in the direction of... I don't know 4k is the minimum acceptable standard I guess.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

...well another not yet finished camera... S-Log for fall 2011... this video only shows how shitty their XDcam "setting" is. :banghead:

Bring on those Epics!!!! :hurray:

In the mean time, I must shoot my own test with the F3 in XDcam setting. Their setup looked very cumbersome.

Pat

 

[Graeme Nattress]

According to Sony's paper on s-log, it needs a conversion lut, a "s-log to cineon" lut to function correctly in a traditional film grading path. Of course, that's the nice thing about R3D as we supply REDLogFilm which directly grades well without need for an added conversion lut, and linearizes directly with the default log2lin in Nuke for linear light work, or of course, you can just go straight to EXR too, if you want. If you ask me, the hype is indeed just that - hype.

s-log certainly doesn't "jack up the F3's dynamic range by 800%" as the article suggests. s-log merely shows you, as Patrick suggest, how limiting the XDCam setting is. The $3300 upgrade price for changing a few numbers in code for a different gamma curve is, however, shocking.

From what I've seen the F3 is a nice enough, if soft and aliasy camera, but to suggest people sell an Epic to get an F3+s-log is ludicrous in the extreme.

Graeme

 

[Robert Frank]

s-log certainly doesn't "jack up the F3's dynamic range by 800%" as the article suggests. s-log merely shows you, as Patrick suggest, how limiting the XDCam setting is.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the comparison originally.

The $3300 upgrade price for changing a few numbers in code for a different gamma curve is, however, shocking.

I have to say Graeme that, sadly, I wasn't shocked at all. I think it is representative of Sony's attitude toward it's customers.

 

[Timur Civan]

I Shot this test, along with my friends Khalid Mohtaseb, and Jon Bregel.

I didnt post it here for a reason. Its not ment for this crowd. I think its an awesome camera for a cheaper price than most of the top end. You guys already have the Top end. No need to worry about this thing. I'm using mine to make money so i can buy an epic anyway......

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Guys, I'm not usually one for being harsh, so I won't start now, but I think some of these posts and threads show inexperience. I just worked with F3 on a series of national ads and the camera did the job it was assigned. The lighting was very good, the dynamic range was fine because it was lit for the dynamic range of the camera. R1 and Epic are better cameras overall. I thought Timur summed it up nicely when he said this camera fills the gap between a decked out RED and a DSLR. Many people are making comments about cameras they have not used, or haven't used in a professional setting with good DPs and gaffers. The S-Log is going to make this camera much better than it currently is, and it's a good camera already. Again, it's not a RED but anybody who uses both cameras on a regular basis already knows that. The S-Log will challenge Arri and RED in terms of DR. It will have uncompressed capability. But it's a 1080 camera, so hence RED has the advantage of higher res, RAW, etc. Not every production needs that.

I personally don't think RED needs to be defended right now. They make kick ass cameras at unbelievable prices. Arri and RED are at the top of the mountain. Other cameras serve various purposes, and it is better in my opinion to look at that as a positive and not a negative. If a camera manufacturer takes a shot at RED through marketing or something, consider that a compliment.

Hopefully everyone can keep an open mind on this issue. When I have the choice, I love shooting with RED. When I don't, I embrace whatever technology we are using and try to get the most out of it.

EDIT: And by challenge dynamic range, I'm saying that this is Sony's answer to the other approaches. Not necessarily saying it will outperform other cameras, as I haven't tested that yet.

 

[Mike P.]

Objectively, I think anyone willing to spend $16k for a 4:2:0 1080p body, then an additional $3+k for a firmware upgrade to get 4:4:4 s-long dual SDI, than whatever $$$ for the recording medium, deserves the limitations imposed and the cost associated with that system.

I'm not saying RED is the be all, end all, either... I really dislike having futz with transcoding to go from RAW-to-workable-format or dealing wtih proxies or basing my NLE decisions on what has the best r3d compatibility, but I can't figure out how any logical thinking person can try to deminish the impressiveness/flexibility of 5k RAW and HDRx to the point where it's even comparable to 1080p baked-in and 14stops of latitude (if that's even the DR the F3 pumps out).

This isn't even a "horses for courses" scenario. This is a case where, if the Epic (particularly Epic-S) does what RED has said it's going to do, the only advantage of the F3 has is that it's available now. Realistically, and my main contention, is that the F3 should be priced the same as the FS100 and be competeing with fixed scarlet -- 2/3rds 3k raw vs. S35 baked-in 1080p (which would be a difficult choice for most indy's). Other than that, there is a pretty clear hierarchy of cost/flexibility ratio with all of these large sensor cameras. It's the equivalent of how much Oakley charges for its sunglasses, which are, essentially, just a few bits of plastic.

 

[Timur Civan]

I just gave a talk at Ned Soltz's Mopictive conference about "choosing the right cam for the job".

I showed three videos, one shot on 5D, one shot on F3, and the last on REDMX. I asked the crowd, which is wich, and they failed miserable at guessing wich camera shot wich piece. The point being different tools for different jobs when properly used can yield fabulous results. Its dangerous and irresponsible for a DP to shoot on only one camera. Its my personal belief that the project should determine the medium.

I own an F3 and shoot only about 50% of my projects on it. The remainder about 40% RED which we rent from a few owner operators, and 10% 5D, wich I own but don't tell anyone I do. (Its a stills camera).

I love the MX, I love the epic, I love the F3. What's the problem with that?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

"I love the MX, I love the Epic, I love the F3. What's the problem with that?" - I think we have a few problems with the article, but not with you and especially not that statement.

Graeme

 

[Brennan Klensch]

Guys, I'm not usually one for being harsh, so I won't start now, but I think some of these posts and threads show inexperience. I just worked with F3 on a series of national ads and the camera did the job it was assigned. The lighting was very good, the dynamic range was fine because it was lit for the dynamic range of the camera. R1 and Epic are better cameras overall. I thought Timur summed it up nicely when he said this camera fills the gap between a decked out RED and a DSLR. Many people are making comments about cameras they have not used, or haven't used in a professional setting with good DPs and gaffers. The S-Log is going to make this camera much better than it currently is, and it's a good camera already. Again, it's not a RED but anybody who uses both cameras on a regular basis already knows that. The S-Log will challenge Arri and RED in terms of DR. It will have uncompressed capability. But it's a 1080 camera, so hence RED has the advantage of higher res, RAW, etc. Not every production needs that.

I personally don't think RED needs to be defended right now. They make kick ass cameras at unbelievable prices. Arri and RED are at the top of the mountain. Other cameras serve various purposes, and it is better in my opinion to look at that as a positive and not a negative. If a camera manufacturer takes a shot at RED through marketing or something, consider that a compliment.

Hopefully everyone can keep an open mind on this issue. When I have the choice, I love shooting with RED. When I don't, I embrace whatever technology we are using and try to get the most out of it.

EDIT: And by challenge dynamic range, I'm saying that this is Sony's answer to the other approaches. Not necessarily saying it will outperform other cameras, as I haven't tested that yet.

Thing is, we're not talking about Red guys not liking sony's stuff. I've posted about sony's stuff at my own site, but the title of the post was ridiculous and it's not just me, though I addressed it in the comments, there are several others expressing the same sentiment. the article is the issue, not the camera. the camera is very very good, but again, why everyone is quick to jump on red guys when they defend the company against falsehoods is beyond me. How is what this guy said in the article any less "fanboyish," than those on the forumn or you would say are "inexperienced."

I haven't even used either camera yet, i've simply seen results. Is S-Log good? it's amazing, it genuinely turned the F3 into a beast. But until then, it was not much better than the fs 100, and it all comes at a price, so, with lenses and this S-Log upgrade, you're looking at rounding out in a price range nearly the same as an Epic-X. "But they're not available!" Different argument altogether. If this guy would've said, "The S-Log upgrade will get the job done now," kind of along what you were saying, there would be no rebuttal

 

[Timur Civan]

I'm not taking the comments personally, I think the article title is rediculous.

I was just saying....

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Thing is, we're not talking about Red guys not liking sony's stuff. I've posted about sony's stuff at my own site, but the title of the post was ridiculous and it's not just me, though I addressed it in the comments, there are several others expressing the same sentiment. the article is the issue, not the camera. the camera is very very good, but again, why everyone is quick to jump on red guys when they defend the company against falsehoods is beyond me. How is what this guy said in the article any less "fanboyish," than those on the forumn or you would say are "inexperienced."

I haven't even used either camera yet, i've simply seen results. Is S-Log good? it's amazing, it genuinely turned the F3 into a beast. But until then, it was not much better than the fs 100, and it all comes at a price, so, with lenses and this S-Log upgrade, you're looking at rounding out in a price range nearly the same as an Epic-X. "But they're not available!" Different argument altogether. If this guy would've said, "The S-Log upgrade will get the job done now," kind of along what you were saying, there would be no rebuttal

The title of the article is meant to get some attention, and perhaps it achieved its goal. It's a pretty silly title. If I can use a boxing analogy for a moment, I would have to say that the pound for pound champ right now is Epic. When you factor resolution, dynamic range, frame rates, RAW, form factor, modularity, price, etc. it's a versatile camera that will suit a variety of shooting styles, genres, etc.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

well...i own an F3 kitted with Nikon glass, and i own a R1MX with PL glass and in stage 2 for EPIC...i am very very happy with the F3 as it suits the purpose i bought it for brilliantly. It's quick, easy, very light and shoots stunning pictures for what it is, easy baked video for easy post and is everything my R1MX isn't, both good and bad. It doesn't compare in images with the R1 but the R1 is far from friendly for the genres i bought the F3 for. When my EPIC comes, great, WHEN it comes! It may be better suited for the genres i'm using the F3 over the R1 but quite frankly, it's overkill for one thing and the rates for shooting these specific genres won't get anywhere near it. Besides, they don't want 5KRAW...1080p baked in simple video files with simple logging software from Sony and easy edit paths is more and all they need for these genres (i'm replacing my EX3 with the F3 for these jobs) Right tool for the right job and all that and it means i can put away my 5D and EX3 for these jobs and use a professional camera. Then you may say EPIC-S...but who knows when that's coming and it may be another 12 months, by that time the F3 will have paid for itself. Or the Scarlet...but no-one around here bar general television production such as reality wants 2/3 depth of field and then it's a network standard and friendly 700 XDCAM which i hire in. F3's a great tool and certainly with the $3300 firmware upgrade and a big bolt on recorder it will be even better, but then why?...that's ALEXA and EPIC territory and i have one coming for that.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

VS. Red MX there are two things I like about the F3:

1 - Built in ND - In run and gun this is a HUGE plus - it's often a pain to get out ND filters, clean them, etc. - in bad weather it's worse - and then by that time the giraffe or whatever has run away. I really wish the epic had built in ND.
2 - Light weight, almost instant on. Again, super great when running and gunning.

This whole business of Red being difficult to post is ludicrous. It is super easy to use Red in final Cut, PPro. You drag, you drop, it plays in real time - what's hard about that? You only need to render your finished project, which if you have a Red Rocket is better than realtime. No really - we just posted a 1 hour Red show in our tiny studio it was was super-easy and inexpensive.

With Epic, we are left with 1 - Built in ND.

The plusses of Red are too many to mention, but I find a great, rarely mentioned run and gun boon is that Raw saves having to spend any time with white balance, knee, etc., and makes shooting way faster and more likely to create usable results.

 

[Timur Civan]

VS. Red MX.....

This whole business of Red being difficult to post is ludicrous. It is super easy to use Red in final Cut, PPro. You drag, you drop, it plays in real time - what's hard about that? You only need to render your finished project, which if you have a Red Rocket is better than realtime. No really - we just posted a 1 hour Red show in our tiny studio it was was super-easy and inexpensive.

With Epic, we are left with 1 - Built in ND.

The plusses of Red are too many to mention, but I find a great, rarely mentioned run and gun boon is that Raw saves having to spend any time with white balance, knee, etc., and makes shooting way faster and more likely to create usable results.

Totally true IF the client is set up with a great system that can handle it. You would be shocked how assbackwards a lot of "post" situations are. I personally own a computer that's 6 years old running vegas 7. Post isn't exactly anything I'm concerned about. I'm a shoot and hand over a HDD type of guy. I just cross my finges someone on their end can handle the footy. For the shooter/editor who is set up to handle it, R1MX is a breeze to shoot and edit.

 

[Jim Retar]

You guys do realise this article is not written by Sony? Seems like some of you think this is some kind of personal attack, it is just some blogger looking for extra hits with a tabloid style title.

I've worked with 4:4:4 s-log and I really can't think of any situation where I wouldn't be able to grade it just as well as RAW. It is amazing for grading.

 

[Timur Civan]

You guys do realise this article is not written by Sony? Seems like some of you think this is some kind of personal attack, it is just some blogger looking for extra hits with a tabloid style title.

I've worked with 4:4:4 s-log and I really can't think of any situation where I wouldn't be able to grade it just as well as RAW. It is amazing for grading.

Hey,

I have minimal experience grading. How does uncompressed 10bit sog respond to colortemprature tweaks?

 

[Jim Retar]

Hey,

I have minimal experience grading. How does uncompressed 10bit sog respond to colortemprature tweaks?

You can push it a hell of alot. S-log comes out very flat and you can push it around to your hearts content, much like REDraw... 4:4:4 is obviously the pinnacle of s-log, but I think 4:2:2 will be just fine for grading.

I'll probably get flamed here for even thinking of comparing it to RAW, but the differences are pretty minimal when it comes to grading.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The major differences in raw over a baked in (even if log) format are in terms of white balance and colorimetry type aspects. The goal of a log curve is to avoid clipping, which is good, and to retain dynamic range through a flat image, which is also good, but it doesn't address the wb and colour space aspects, or in a bayer format camera more advanced demosaic options. Now, as far as I know, the F3 is a bayer camera so could possibly benefit in that aspect of raw also. If someone shoots a good zone plate of an F3 I can probably quite quickly tell if raw would be a benefit there or if the internal demosaic and downsample is of a good enough standard that you needn't worry.

Graeme