Sony's 4K push, but are the films in their ad really 4k?

[Tonaci Tran]

I work up this morning to do my usual email->reduser->facebook checking ritual. I clicked on my facebook page and in the corner of my eye, an advertisement of "4K" caught my attention.

It turns out to be a Sony facebook page promoting 4k projection. As was mentioned in the other Sony thread, 4k is definitely part of their roadmap.

I noticed though, the ad states see "movies to see in 4k."

Does this mean that these movies they have listed have been mastered in 4k and are being projected in 4k? or does it mean they are projecting 2k movies with a 4k projector?

http://www.facebook.com/sonyelectronics?v=app_157919067584627

 

[M Most]

I work up this morning to do my usual email->reduser->facebook checking ritual. I clicked on my facebook page and in the corner of my eye, an advertisement of "4K" caught my attention.

It turns out to be a Sony facebook page promoting 4k projection. As was mentioned in the other Sony thread, 4k is definitely part of their roadmap.

Does this mean that these movies they have listed have been mastered in 4k and are being projected in 4k? or does it mean they are projecting 2k movies with a 4k projector?

It means the pictures were finished as a 4K DI and have gone out as a 4K digital cinema package. It does not mean that theaters showing them have a 4K media block (aka digital cinema server), even if they are equipped with a Sony 4K projection system. If the server is 2K, that is what is extracted from the DCP and projected. If the server is 4K capable, that is what is on the screen.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

Burlesque was mastered in 4K, according to the ACmag write-up.

 

[Tonaci Tran]

It means the pictures were finished as a 4K DI and have gone out as a 4K digital cinema package. It does not mean that theaters showing them have a 4K media block (aka digital cinema server), even if they are equipped with a Sony 4K projection system. If the server is 2K, that is what is extracted from the DCP and projected. If the server is 4K capable, that is what is on the screen.

Green Hornet which they are promoting was finished as a 4k DI?

 

[M Most]

Green Hornet which they are promoting was finished as a 4k DI?

In 2D, that's quite possible. Not in 3D.

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

It depends on the film. TRON was filmed at 1080p and mastered at 2K and I was still able to see it via Sony 4K. They'll show movies with 2K DI's and the projector will upres them, and they'll show movies with 4K DI's as well.

 

[Tonaci Tran]

It depends on the film. TRON was filmed at 1080p and mastered at 2K and I was still able to see it via Sony 4K. They'll show movies with 2K DI's and the projector will upres them, and they'll show movies with 4K DI's as well.

I think to fully promote 4k in all of it's glory, it has to be with 4k material.
I'm curious as to which movies are actually showing in true 4k.

Red Ray is going to be a game changer when it comes to 4k playback for theaters.

 

[L. Langer]

I think to fully promote 4k in all of it's glory, it has to be with 4k material.
I'm curious as to which movies are actually showing in true 4k.

Red Ray is going to be a game changer when it comes to 4k playback for theaters.

Any film on Sony's exhibition list is going to be showing in "true 4K" or whatever you want to call it, but the hard part is finding a theater equipped with 4K hardware that is actually showing those films on the 4K hardware as many multiplex theaters are in the transition phase and have several 2k setups still installed. With a digital cinema theater, you can show whatever you want on any screen based on demand or preference but that's really a bad thing if the theater management in a theater equipped with 4K systems is clueless about 4K exhibition and doesn't use it. In short, call your nearest 4K equipped theater and do some fact-finding.

 

[Iannis Holwech]

Sony's List of 4K movies by year; http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-di...nema-latest-4kmoviereleaseslisting.shtml#2011

Cinemas with Sony 4K projectors; http://sony.links.channelintelligence.com/oemsites/6553221/4K/sony4k.html?pg=2

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Red Ray is going to be a game changer when it comes to 4k playback for theaters.

Sure, but won't the studios have to reconvene the Digital Cinema Initiative committees and all agree to change the standards to allow RedRay compression schemes and anti-piracy controls into the mix? You have to believe that they aren't happy with their own 4K DCP specs and technology first before they'd reopen that can of worms to incorporate RedRay, if I understand the DCI system accurately.

 

[PatrickW]

Sure, but won't the studios have to reconvene the Digital Cinema Initiative committees and all agree to change the standards to allow RedRay compression schemes and anti-piracy controls into the mix? You have to believe that they aren't happy with their own 4K DCP specs and technology first before they'd reopen that can of worms to incorporate RedRay, if I understand the DCI system accurately.

If I can open a theater, buy a projector and redray machine, I can just "buy" the digital prints from indie filmmakers directly, Red as a "movie store", or studios and run the theater however I want right?

Is RedRay going to get a major push from indie theatres?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Indie theaters still deal with distributors generally.

 

[M Most]

If I can open a theater, buy a projector and redray machine, I can just "buy" the digital prints from indie filmmakers directly, Red as a "movie store", or studios and run the theater however I want right?

Not if you want to be showing pictures supplied by distributors and supported by advertising on both a national and local level. I would think it would be quite a bit more difficult to "go it alone" and have sufficient resources to inform the community of what you're showing and why they should be interested in paying to see it, at least in sufficient numbers for the venture to make money.

As David mentioned, indie theaters primarily show pictures supplied by distributors, for the reasons I just mentioned and others. Most indie pictures are distributed as film prints because that is what most indie houses have in terms of projection capabilities. There are a few digital distributors (Emerging Pictures comes to mind), but for the most part, indie distribution is handled in a very traditional way, even today. I know lots of people here and elsewhere really want to "live the dream" of making a movie and somehow finding enough independent theaters to show it in, and thus thinking this approach is practical. However, this is a model that has never really worked, and I honestly don't see how that would change just because there's an inexpensive server available. The best course to movie fame and fortune remains making a very good picture, getting a distributor interested, selling it, and building your reputation as a filmmaker through it. At least if you want to make a living and a career out of it.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

4K paradox

4K paradox

Its getting easer and lower cost to make "indy" films of high quality, my 4K+ DI system is freeish, and 4K REDRAY for projection would be great, but as it gets easer to show something you can shoot, it is getting harder to fill seats to show people what an "indy" can produce.

Big studio films have production values higher than an "indy" can make, and many of the non-multiplex theatres are on life support as people don't go to see those kinds of films. I went to a lecture where Coppola was going on and on about how the audance for little "indy" films has dried up.

I'm not sure what the future of 4K home projection would be, but maybe that is a download, does/will the REDRAY player have a download option, to burn disks or buffer the data on HD?

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I am willing to bet a RED Shoulder Dovetail that the BIG SURPRISE at NAB is RED RAY related.

Knowing Jim as we do, I am sure he has considered every aspect that David and Most have brought up here and nobody knows whats been going on behind closed doors for the past couple years. (It has been 2-3 years since Red Ray was announced)

I also know that Stuart has addressed these comments many times and they have/are certainly doing there homework... Jim wants to reinvent distribution as well as acquisition and while Most brings up VERY VALID points... I would be floored if RED has not had any meetings with studio execs and built this solution 100% in a vacuum. Especially with all the hints that Jim and Stuart have dropped over the years.

THis is my guess for BIG SURPRISE> the studios (some not all) have agreed to adopt the RED RAY PRO for distribution and digital rights management

2nd Guess is they designed a 4K projector that will cost under $25K. (pipe dream)

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Worth noting in this discussion is the lack of promotion of "4K" goodness by the exhibitors. Scanning the listings in the LA Times I see terms like "Pure Digital" (love to see the fine print on that claim) and of course 3D touts, but has anyone ever seen an ad that urged people to come see 4K?

The cynic in me assumes they are going to flog 3D for a while and then perhaps try marketing 4K to the theater going public.

In any case, even if I go to the Sony site and discover titles I am interested in have been mastered at 4K there is currently no straightforward way to figure out which local theater I can go to and see that movie in all its 4K glory.

Cheers - #19

 

[Ketch Rossi]

In absolute favor of 4k

 

[M Most]

Worth noting in this discussion is the lack of promotion of "4K" goodness by the exhibitors. Scanning the listings in the LA Times I see terms like "Pure Digital" (love to see the fine print on that claim) and of course 3D touts, but has anyone ever seen an ad that urged people to come see 4K?

The cynic in me assumes they are going to flog 3D for a while and then perhaps try marketing 4K to the theater going public.

If you are in a theater with the Sony equipment (the Muvico complex in Thousand Oaks is one such venue) there is usually a splash screen prior to the feature presentation advertising it as such. But I've never seen it mentioned in their print ads, which to me doesn't mean they're emphasizing 3D, but that they've basically determined that the 4K moniker really doesn't carry any weight with the general public. My not-so-scientific surveys indicate the same thing. The real reason for 4K DI mastering at this point in time is more about archiving than it is the current theatrical experience.

Consumers vote with their pocketbooks. If they like what they see, and they enjoy the overall experience, they come back to that particular theater. If they don't, they don't, and it usually has nothing to do with the number of "K"s except as a part of an overall experience.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

overall experience

overall experience

If they like what they see, and they enjoy the overall experience, they come back to that particular theater.

I had the misfortune to see the so called "Digital Restoration" of "The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957)" at the Castro in San Francisco.

It seems someone set the "sharpness" control on the opticals the titles were super-ed on, as high as they thought they could go, not understanding that the opticals SHOULD be less sharp than the other shots as they would have been, otherwise the grain goes way to high.

Well after the titles, they seem to have forgotten to turn down the sharpness so any shot with some contrast was blasted out of control with grain that was not anything like what you would have seen on an original print of the day, as print stocks made for those negative stocks were less sharp than making a print on todays stocks that are sharper and would show more grain as well, but not anyhing like this digital "Restoration".

Anyway, my point is that if people are going to project film scans with a 4K digital projector they should use temporial noise reduction and chroma low pass area filters, and not over sharpen the luma to the point where all you see is grain. Most 35mm movies release prints cannot produce 80% MTF much higher than 960x540 pixels if that much, more like 40% for older color films. So if you try to project them 4k unless you roll off the MTF like a 4th generation film print, its not going to look good. If a "Restoration" they should go back to the original negative and scan it at 4K, 6K or 8K, use good de-grain and dust-bust software just as would be done on a film in current production, the re-grade each shot and not make a mess from a HD telecine of an old archive print.

In just a few years there will be no film projection at all, so the only way to see classic films will be through digital projection. 2k scans and 2k projection may loose a little from a negative scan, so there may be some reason to scan and project at 4k, but I would hope that they would spend the money needed to do a job on it that respects the look of the original prints, and not some half measure. I know the money is not there to do things right, so people in the future may never get to enjoy the clasic films as their directors and producers intended them to look on the screen...

 

[M Most]

If a "Restoration" they should go back to the original negative and scan it at 4K, 6K or 8K, use good de-grain and dust-bust software just as would be done on a film in current production, the re-grade each shot and not make a mess from a HD telecine of an old archive print.

A "restoration" job is just that. The best images are obtained from whatever elements can be located, often on a scene by scene basis. Sometimes that is the camera negative (rarely), sometimes it's an archival IP, sometimes it's a studio print, sometimes it's even a CRI, but a lot of research is done to locate the best existing elements from which to work. HD telecine is never used for archival restoration, and 4K scans are usually the starting point if the restoration is being done digitally - which even today is not always the case.

Just because you didn't like one screening you happened to attend, don't assume that studio archivists don't know what they're doing, don't assume that they aren't familiar with all new technologies (even some you might not know about), and don't assume that they aren't trying to create the best images possible on each and every job they undertake. And above all, don't assume that they don't care.