Sony PMW-F3L vs. RED-One ???

[Paul Steinberg]

XDCam isn't a write once media, you can rewrite it 100's if not 1000's of times and it archives for longer than I'll be alive. At about $1/Gb for media, a 7 year warranty on the laser transport and 4:2:2 50Mb/s recording I understand why it's selling so well. At $20 for a 43min load it's the new Betacam/DBeta.

Try this stuff out, it's pretty good. F35 and SRW-9000PL that have been mentioned in this thread are really really good cameras that produce really really good pictures. In fact, I don't think I've picked up a camera in the last three years that doesn't produce really good pictures.

I'm keen to get my hands on the Red SSD's but until their announcement XDCam and HDCamSR have been much more reliable recording media IMHO.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I question whether Sony is reacting to scarlet or Canon. It doesnt make any sense if they're reacting to RED. "oh no a highly featured s35 sized camera for about $10k quick release a small $16k camera with less features.". That's not reacting. On the other hand if you see it as a reaction to canon it makes sense. "oh nobody wants our procumer cameras because they want big chips,and are wasting time and money bolting on accessories to make it functional!" That actually makes sense. Sony doesn't probably care all that much about its cine line getting canibalized, how much do they really make in such low volume? I think they just genuinely released a 5D killer and have nothing else to worry about. and I think they were genuinely surprised by the interest for a 35mm camera based on canons success. so I think there is a lot less conspiracy and a lot more ignorance and shortsightedness. "nobody but a feature film would want 4:4:4 so no need to really worry about that." "Nobody but a feature film would want a s35 sensor.". "Nobody but a feature film would want a PL mount." Surpise! There is a huge market for the cine look at low budgets. . But I imagine Sony thinks they're giving us what we want with the crappy recording medium. They knocked off the feature list as they see it: big sensor, check. PL, check. Better recording medium than canon, check! Future upgrade path for those weirdos who use it to shoot 4:4:4, check! . "perfect camera, done!"

 

[Paul Steinberg]

I'm with you on that Gavin. The F3 solves all the problems of DSLR shooting. No timecode, professional audio inputs for sync sound recording, profession video monitoring and ability to record externally...but a big part of what has also made DLSR shooting so popular is the quantity of high quality, affordable 35mm EF lenses. I think the lack of a canon mount was an unfortunate oversight.

 

[Tom.Wong]

still may happen. birger may have something up their sleeves, and there is data link from within the mount.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I question whether Sony is reacting to scarlet or Canon. It doesnt make any sense if they're reacting to RED. "oh no a highly featured s35 sized camera for about $10k quick release a small $16k camera with less features.". That's not reacting. On the other hand if you see it as a reaction to canon it makes sense. "oh nobody wants our procumer cameras because they want big chips,and are wasting time and money bolting on accessories to make it functional!"

I think it is a reaction to both Red and Canon. They cannot sell their low-end prosumer cams with small sensors anymore, due to Canon, and they will not be able to sell their high-end CineAlta cameras any longer for $250,000, due to Red One MX and Epic. Sony is being squeezed from both sides. This F3 is an attempt to run the ball right up the middle, but it's not going to save them.

Sony doesn't probably care all that much about its cine line getting canibalized, how much do they really make in such low volume?

Which is exactly why many us here have been saying for years that Sony should stop "protecting" their ultra-expensive CineAlta cameras and just release the large-sensor, interchangeable-lens prosumer HD cameras all of us have been clamoring for during the last 5 or 6 years.

and I think they were genuinely surprised by the interest for a 35mm camera based on canons success. so I think there is a lot less conspiracy and a lot more ignorance and shortsightedness. "nobody but a feature film would want 4:4:4 so no need to really worry about that." "Nobody but a feature film would want a s35 sensor.". "Nobody but a feature film would want a PL mount." Surpise! There is a huge market for the cine look at low budgets. . But I imagine Sony thinks they're giving us what we want with the crappy recording medium. They knocked off the feature list as they see it: big sensor, check. PL, check. Better recording medium than canon, check! Future upgrade path for those weirdos who use it to shoot 4:4:4, check! . "perfect camera, done!"

Then they are fools. Canon has piled up a MOUNTAIN of cash and profits from the 5D2. I believe the 5D2 has been the most profitable product in the history of Canon. The executives at Sony's CineAlta division should all resign, in my opinion. But that will probably happen soon enough, once Epic drops. I won't be surprised if Sony is forced to shut down their CineAlta division, or reorganize it. They will probably try to focus more on ENG, sports, etc. The fact that Sony's biggest upcoming feature film, Spiderman Reboot, is being shot on Epics should be enough to cause several resignation among the brass at CineAlta.

I agree with you Gavin, that foolishness and short-sightedness played a role in Sony withholding large-sensor, interchangable-lens prosumer HD cameras from the market, but I am also 100% convinced that they were attempting to "protect" their super-expensive F900, F23, and F35 1080p cameras. In the end, I believe they calculated incorrectly, and screwed over their prosumer customers for years in the process.

 

[Stuart English]

XDCAM

XDCAM

XDCam isn't a write once media, you can rewrite it 100's if not 1000's of times and it archives for longer than I'll be alive. At about $1/Gb for media, a 7 year warranty on the laser transport and 4:2:2 50Mb/s recording I understand why it's selling so well. At $20 for a 43min load it's the new Betacam/DBeta.

I didn't mean XDCAM optical disk is write once, I said the requirement for network news was for write once media.

Picture quality is certainly O.K, but also nothing to write home about either, especially in the 35Mbps 4:2:0 version that's used in the F3.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

If Sony was trying to "Protect" their high end cinealta products they wouldn't plaster Cinealta all over their low end pro range XDCAM EX.
Sony doesn't do prosumer, Sony's idea of prosumer is the FX1 these are professional cameras aimed at specific points in the market, film schools, low end indie filmmakers and documentary film makers etc.

I also think Sony Pictures using the red camera for Spiderman instead of a Cinealta camera being some kind of a sign a little silly, it's not like they give procures out to the filmmakers when they go to do a film with Sony pictures I assume the two don't talk to each other often as Sony Pictures is likely run out of LA and Cinealta run out of Japan.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Yeah but P2 was also pretty small in storage at the time and as I recall pretty expensive compared to professional disc.

If Panasonic and Sony made a practice of trying to deliver the best joint technology, at least as far as fundamentals like media go, economies of scale would enter into the picture more rapidly.

Neither are really media companies. (i.e. tape, disc manufacturers) They both do so to some extent, because they must. Neither consider it a core business.

Its one of those things where they could both benefit from co-operation, and at the same time serve their customers.

Of course, I'd argue that serving their customers is a side effect of their business, not its purpose. At least not anymore.

Look at their reaction to RED. It may be impolitic but ask your Sony/Panasonic rep about RED... or ask several reps that you don't use. They have a company line based on propagating confusion.

The "right" competitive reaction would have been to say, "Hey, can this upstart camera company deliver on their promises, even theoretically?" "Can we deliver on their promises?" "What would it cost to try?"

That is not the path they took.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

If I recall correctly, U.S. Broadcast Network News is what Sony was thinking there... where the camera media is archived "as is".

Hence the desire for low cost "write once" media, and the uphill battle for P2, which needed to be dubbed to lower cost media for archive.

Not much to do with raising image quality... rather cost.

Also, compared to tape, optical disk (and P2) supported the option for "non-linear, direct-to-air" editing.

I'm familiar with the mentality and the practice.

I'd argue that as early as 2001 it was obvious that any sort of disc recording was a stopgap. Hard disks were the future, and that future would be a commoditized IT infrastructure.

I made a presentation to executives from Panasonic and Sony arguing this point in 1999. In that presentation I argued that camera media needed to be rapidly and reliably re-usable, and that all archival needed to be done using IT methodologies. I recommended R&D and specific products to both companies.

(I was a computer and business consultant before being a motion imaging type, and both companies hired me (independently) for an outside evaluation of the market.)

In 1998 many TV stations were already lamenting the increasing amount of space they needed just to keep tapes on hand in their studios. Coupled with the logistical problems of using warehousing for archival storage, the industry was already ready for a solution.

In other words... TV stations (or at least the bean counters at said stations) were looking for a way to get away from storing tons (literally) of tape.

IT based camera recording was the logical go to, because with IT camera media, you can have IT based archival- and that stuff gets smaller, cheaper and faster so quickly it still amazes people.

Using DVCPRO 50 as a basis, and assuming your average local news station produces 24 hours of raw camera footage per day (That is a HUGE overestimate), a 200TB storage system can hold a full year of footage online.

Media would have cost almost $900000 USD, in December 2001, or $250000 USD in November 2003. (This ignores all the other IT infrastructure, like RAID cabinets and racks... I estimated in 2001 that a 200TB SAN would cost $5000000 USD)

The particular numbers were not the issue. (And in fact all I had was projections based on Kryder's Law) What was important was the trajectory of improvement.

In fact, buying disks for this 200TB system today would run approximately $15,000- and it would need far less infrastructure, with just 100 disks versus 2001's 5000 disks)

(Of course today you are far closer to needing 24 hours per day of video storage than you were in 1999, fortunately codecs like AVC Intra let us get 4:2:2 HD footage into the same 50Mbps we used to just barely stuff 4:2:2 SD into.)

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think it is a reaction to both Red and Canon. ...

I agree that Sony is getting squeezed on both sides, by RED on the high end and by Canon on the low end.

I do think its short sightedness and stupidity that has limited their products, but those are a small part compared to arrogance.

That said.. the F3 is a smart camera. Not as smart as it could be. The camera should have released with XDCAM 422 50Mbps recording. (And its now time for an EX2 and EX4 with that same feature thanks to Canon's actual video cameras) Also, they should have just re-used the viewfinder from the EX3.

But I digress- I was saying how its smart.

This thing is the only S35 purpose built motion picture camera you can buy and have ready to run for under $20000 USD today. (No... RED requires a TON of accessories)

You can add accessories and outboard recording and get much better performance, plus it slots right into a "normal" no/lo budget indie film workflow.

Its smart for Sony- provided you take a short term outlook.

The F3 will likely become irrelevant the day Epic Light ships to new customers without a wait.

Of course, if the F3 is truly the stopgap measure it appears to be, its successors might prove very interesting.

Now... I'm sick of talking about Sony et al. Back to RED.

 

[Tom Lowe]

This thing is the only S35 purpose built motion picture camera you can buy and have ready to run for under $20000 USD today. (No... RED requires a TON of accessories)

Just think how popular this camera would have been four years ago, when they should have released it! :biggrin5:

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Just think how popular this camera would have been four years ago, when they should have released it! :biggrin5:

Agreed.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Well, I am happy they didn't...

If RED had had competition like that 4 years ago it would have been... harder... for lack of better words - to establish new and better workflows and signalchains and Jim would maybe had a harder sell on his "1080 is a mistake" sentiment.

I think that Sony finally has decided for the F3 bodes well for 4k in general, and RED is not the company that will feel a 444 log S35 lowcost camera without varispeed the worst....

To me this looks like more of a response to the DSLRs and Arri, than the RED line of cameras...
(And no, I am not trying to directly compare it with the Arri...)


Just thinkin' out loud here...

 

[Mike Burke]

Sony gear is strong. It holds together well, but it's like the fabled restaurant: "The food is crap but it comes in such large portions".

Crap?!! Really?
Is it just me... it seems that comments like these seem to really detract from the virtues of RED, as well as deminish the credibility of those who make them.
The last time I checked, a careful look at the industry seems to indicate that Sony is still the dominant digital camera maker for U.S. television series production this season.
It would seem that they still offer a viable product...

Now regarding the OP's original question, I feel that there really is no comparison. The RED ONE MX is a tough act to follow. (These images have never looked better).
It would seem that the F3 is probably more poised to cut into the DSLR market, given the shortcomings related to audio, TC, monitoring, aliasing, etc.

The bottom line is this: we have the benefit of all these manufactures raising the bar with their cameras. Sony manufactures cameras that make fabulous pictures... this one will be no different. RED has EPIC & Scarlet waiting in the wings. And, oh yes, NAB is just around the corner. I for one can't wait.
It ought to be an interesting year.

 

[Joe Walker]

Agreed, the Sony F3 is more of a stab back towards the DSLR market, and adding S Log is their way of taking a shot at Arri. I don't think they're crap, and I don't think they're wonderful. I think they just are.

And no, heads should not be rolling at Cine Alta because a few films at Sony Pics are being shot on Epics, that's just plain nonsense, considering that most films distributed by Sony Pics are shot on 35mm. Even if all films at Sony Pics were shot on Epics, that would be foolish. Cine Alta has a lot to be proud of, as does Varicam, as does Kodak, as does Fuji, and while we're at it, RED has a lot to be proud of too.

 

[Tom Lowe]

A scene from the Sony boardroom next summer when the subject of "Red" comes up.

 

[Ace]

And no, heads should not be rolling at Cine Alta because a few films at Sony Pics are being shot on Epics, that's just plain nonsense, considering that most films distributed by Sony Pics are shot on 35mm. Even if all films at Sony Pics were shot on Epics, that would be foolish. Cine Alta has a lot to be proud of, as does Varicam, as does Kodak, as does Fuji, and while we're at it, RED has a lot to be proud of too.

But Spidey is afterall their flagship entertainment product. If only you knew, Sony is such a highly incestious multinational organisation (in a good way). All of their divisions are regularly interdependent. It's part of their corporate ethos. Which is why Tom is right. Hell, look at the industrial design of the Playstation 3. Where do you think that form comes from. Here's something I whipped up to illustrate the point. (Yes, they designed an entire flagship console around the branding of one of their films..).

 

[Joe Walker]

A scene from the Sony boardroom next summer when the subject of "Red" comes up.

Tom, was your childhood ruined by a Sony product?

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Canon has piled up a MOUNTAIN of cash and profits from the 5D2. I believe the 5D2 has been the most profitable product in the history of Canon.

Do you know this to be true? Or do you believe this to be true? There is no information in their financial reports to support this assertion. Their Consumer Business Unit (houses SLRS and camcorders) reported a 10.6% decline. Certainly these results, in the teeth of a recession, were buoyed by brisk DSLR sales, and their annual report contains vague references supporting the solid growth in the higher-end DSLR sector of their business, but there is no indication of a massive windfall to Canon.

Canon is a massive company and the totality of their Consumer Business Unit represents only 40% of their overall sales, within a product mix which also includes consumer imaging (a much larger overall piece of the pie than the DSLR market), lenses (also a larger piece), inkjet printers, and a host of other products. So even a substantial bump in sales of DSLRs hasn't resulted in the giant shift in their product focus.

If this is the case, they're certainly concealing it from their shareholders. You would think that the opposite would be true.

Sorry if this sounds kind of egg-headed, but I do think it's important to check the facts.

My modest observation -

Here is Sony, with a magnificent 4K projector and every intention of delivering 4K digital cinema, but decent no mass produced acquisition system of scale:

"Cinemas around the world are starting to deploy digital projectors, which allow content to be projected at substantially higher image quality than existing projectors. The 4K digital cinema projector system already commercialized by Sony is designed for easy conversion to 3D projection, and the two largest theater chains in the United States have signed on to deploy our systems across their circuits of more than 11,000 screens, representing an important step for this growth business." (from their shareholder letter...)

and here is RED, with obvious access to acquisition systems unrivaled by any other filmmaker but no delivery system (that we are aware of, anyway...).

It really seems to take both companies to deliver a complete pipeline, from acquisition to delivery.

Maybe Epson will be the disruptive force in the acquistion-to-delivery chain, time will tell.

I hope affordable 4K delivery is closer than we think.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Just think how popular this camera would have been four years ago, when they should have released it!

I don't think there's a problem with the timing of the release, there is a market now for such a camera... the problem is the PRICE, just think how popular it would be if it were half the price! I think people would pay a third over what a Canon 5D costs if it does much better 1080P video, with all the professional features you'd expect in a video camera, but three times the price... well, it's a bit much. But there is certainly a market now for a camera with these features. You have often mentioned that there is a market now for the Canon 5D, and that does much worse 1080P video in comparison, so obviously there would is a market for a 35mm sensor camera that did better HD video... but I think people's price expectations are a bit lower.

Let's all admit that DSLR cameras are not really designed to be video cameras, they are missing an awful lot of standard features and there is a lack of video zooms for that market, so the F3 makes a lot of sense as a step beyond DSLR video, the question is whether you are getting enough increase in value, quality, features, for the jump in cost over a DSLR.

I think the F3 would sell a lot better if it were priced around the $9000 mark, let's say.