Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony PMW-F3L vs. RED-One ???

Status
Not open for further replies.
George D.

George D.

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
N. California, USA
Hi everybody.

I hope everyone is having a great Xmas, and a terrific New Year to come.

I was just curious to know what you all thought of this new, upcoming, Sony PMW-F3L Super 35mm Full HD Compact Camcorder, and how it stacks up against the RED-One.

This new camcorder sure looks good, with great specs, a good price, and completely professional. It just may give RED a run for the money.

Check it out here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/743863-REG/Sony_PMW_F3L_PMW_F3L_Super_35mm_Full_HD.html

Any opinions, and especially any spec comparisons, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks ahead of time.

.
 
Ace said:
Why would it give RED a run for the money?

A
Click to expand...

I was thinking mainly of documentary Television productions, like for National Geographic, or Discovery Channel, or PBS, etc.

I guess I should have been more specific.

.
 
George D. said:
This new camcorder sure looks good, with great specs, a good price, and completely professional. It just may give RED a run for the money.
Click to expand...

"MPEG-2 Long GOP" is not completely professional in my book... At best this camera competes in the Scarlet space.

Seriously, what is Sony playing at still using MP2?
 
The most glaring problem I've seen so far with this is that without an external recorder it's 4:2:0 and still GOP. Now, I don't have anything against Sony and I'm sure this will be a fine camera - but if I could get EPIC-S for the same price (or thereabouts) and shoot RAW I would easily chose that instead. Having said that, I would chose an AF100 over this unless I could afford the expense of an external recorder - I don't know...it just doesn't seem to stack up that much better against either RED or Panasonic without one?
 
I've tested it for 3 days in France.

Don't worry for Red. F3 is a overpriced toy.

I mean for 6000$ it would be great while waiting for scarlet.
But at 14 000€...

PL mount, colors, ergonomics, LCD, EVF, design and plastic....
Everything screams toy... Only resolution is fine... for low-cost tv and web.
 
If you couple the F3 with a AJA KiPro Mini it is an acceptable tools for low end productions.

I would have been very happy with one on Star Trek Phase 2. On a show like that its workflow is operationally better than a RED, and the technical advantages of a RED hardly matter.

(I had a RED One M on Phase 2 for Kitumba. You can't get buy with a "fast learners" or the like. You need professionals.)

This camera records much lower resolution, has less dynamic range and lower light sensitivity than a RED One Mysterium. A RED One MX or EPIC is even better.

No... RED has nothing to be concerned about.

In fact... if anything Sony really ought to consider lowering their price. I'd suggest and MSRP for the body only around $10000 USD, with a target street price between the EX1R and EX3. (Even so, once you add a lens kit it will cost a lot more than either of those cameras.)
 
Last edited:
RED is better, but this can do well in the right hands. MPEG 2 Long GOP is better than H.264 and H.264 has seemed to find it's way to television quite a bit in 2010. I think it will be just fine. Not a red and not supposed to be.
 
it's a different animal. if you really look at it, it's a f35 rehoused in a smaller body, with a cmos sensor instead of CCD. when dual link 444 is an option it's gonna destroy the need for renting a f35 period. custom luts can be applied for the sxs recording and live tap from camera, while a external recorder such as cinedeck can give you 444 s log. it's just to show more that the times are changing and the level of quality in cameras are bracketing down.

444 s log used to be a kind of hollywood only feature, you'd need some serious budget to get access to that, now it's gonna be in the hands of much lower budget productions. the crazy high end productions are all mega high resolution, 3d shoots now with RAW and a billion other features. come time, those will bracket down too, and a new generation of cameras will lead the way. It's gonna be a happy year for everybody no matter what u pick.
 
...it's a "1080p" MPEG-2, 8-bit 4:2:0 camcorder for 13 grand. it's basically an hvx w/ letus. how does that come anywhere close to comparing to any RED camera?

tom, it's pretty safe to say that a sensor is a crucial part of the camera... it is not an f35 rehoused, not by any stretch of the imagination.

i can respect the f35, but i'm not sure why they've released this camera...
 
i don't see how a s35 sensor, with excellent sensitivity of 800 iso and up, with a built in proxy recording method and also allowing for 444 dual link s log recording in its form factor and size doesn't beat out the f35.

f35 is huge, needs an sr deck or something comparable just to record anything, sensitivity is nowhere close. if you look at the specs of the f35, the F3 beats it out on so many levels. just because the built in codec is garbage, doesn't mean the dual link doesn't offer up a lot. it offers exactly what the f35 has always offered, plus the ability of a on board offline recording, and soon to be built in LUT application. dual link 444 has never been a prosumer option, and of course it pales to RED, but you know what? so does an f35 imho. but it's the pure fact that for 13 grand, i've pretty much got an f35 in my hands right now, for 12 thousand more, I've got a 4k raw camera in my hand. nobody could ever dream of this a few years ago, and I think it's just more tools for different jobs.
 
Tom.Wong said:
i don't see how a s35 sensor, with excellent sensitivity of 800 iso and up, with a built in proxy recording method and also allowing for 444 dual link s log recording in its form factor and size doesn't beat out the f35.
Click to expand...

This is precisely why, in my opinion, Sony has withheld this large-sensor technology from their indie and prosumer customers, up until now. Sony could have put this F3 camera out 3 years ago, or 5 years ago, if they'd wanted to. But they had to protect their $250,000 1080p cameras, such as the F35 and F23.

The fact that Sony is releasing this F3 -- which completely undermines their $250,000 1080p cameras -- is a sign of desperation and weakness, not strength. The only reason Sony is releasing this F3 is because Jim is about to put their digital cinema camera division out of business. Right now, CineAlta is in serious danger of becoming extinct as a division of Sony. Not to mention the pressure Canon has put on them from the other direction, with large-sensor DSLRs.

How do you think executives at Sony feel when they have to use Jim's Epic cameras to film their biggest Sony/Columbia picture coming up -- Spiderman 4? Some heads will be rolling at CineAlta soon, if they haven't started rolling already.
 
Tom Lowe said:
This is precisely why, in my opinion, Sony has withheld this large-sensor technology from their indie and prosumer customers, up until now. Sony could have put this F3 camera out 3 years ago, or 5 years ago, if they'd wanted to. But they had to protect their $250,000 1080p cameras, such as the F 35 and F23.
Click to expand...

You see what you want to see, What I see is roadmaps in action, the XDCAM EX technology is introduced with the EX1, then with what they have learned they try using interchanging lenses a custom mount which can take other lenses with an adaptor but still using the same sensor size.
After perfecting this you move onto trying a 35mm sensor CMOS and you have your F3, what's the next step? Who knows maybe it's 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 XDCAM EX codecs or onboard HDCAM SR recording after all they are working on those SR cards at which point you'll probably see the 4k F35.

Red (And this is just my observation) isn't too dissimilar however instead of bringing out a fresh camera year after year they like to test and improve until they get it right one one camera maybe you could see the red one as a public test bed, giving us the MX sensor instead of making us wait for the Epic for that tech.
Sony on the other hand advances though they're tech though slow road maps and constant smaller camera releases some people or customers like that approach, the ones that don't I guess buy red cameras.


Gunleik Groven said:
...or it could be a sign of an upcomming + 1080 highend cam from Sony...
Click to expand...
At the F3 event they mentioned a dockable SR card reader for the f23 and 35 so thats probably going to come first as those cards are designed for future expansion to a 4k HDCAM SR
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
What I see is roadmaps in action, the XDCAM EX technology is introduced with the EX1, then with what they have learned they try using interchanging lenses a custom mount which can take other lenses with an adaptor but still using the same sensor size.
Click to expand...

Do you seriously believe that Sony could have put the EX1 out with an S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses and not undermined their exorbitantly priced F23, which only had a 2/3 sensor? Think about it. They have been protecting their super-expensive cameras by keeping the sensors small in their prosumer cameras. The only reason they are changing this now is because Red and Canon have forced their hand. They have no choice now -- release large-sensor prosumer HD cameras or become extinct.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Do you seriously believe that Sony could have put the EX1 out with an S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses and not undermined their exorbitantly priced F23, which only had a 2/3 sensor? Think about it. They have been protecting their super-expensive cameras by keeping the sensors small in their prosumer cameras. The only reason they are changing this now is because Red and Canon have forced their hand. They have no choice now -- release large-sensor prosumer HD cameras or become extinct.
Click to expand...

Sony would never make a jump that big, thats why they made the 23 before the 35, it was technology they knew from the 900 and the 950 the f23 was about form factor, the panavision genesis showed them that high end users like a camera thats designed like a film camera.
Sony isn't a reactionary company they don't work like that besides the existence of the f35 or Genesis for that matter didn't stop people from shooting f23 or f900.
 
Tom Lowe said:
This is precisely why, in my opinion, Sony has withheld this large-sensor technology from their indie and prosumer customers, up until now. Sony could have put this F3 camera out 3 years ago, or 5 years ago, if they'd wanted to. But they had to protect their $250,000 1080p cameras, such as the F35 and F23.
Click to expand...

while I don't disagree, I'm still happy that these options are here and now. dual link is available to the masses, at a price point in a specific spot. The options are there, that's all that matters. Some people can only afford a 800 dollar dslr, some can afford a 5000 prosumer camera, some can afford a 13k s35 camera with dual link. others can afford 18K an above for 4k RAW. choices for everybody, tools for any job you want.

I'm all about choices, and whether it's a sign of weakness or desperation, all it does it benefit the end user. I can't wait for the f3 to hit the streets, I can't wait to epic hits the streets. It's gonna be a wild ride.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top