Sony planning "affordable 4K" in '09

[Ken Corben]

Early next year, we will see the Sony F23 HD camcorder released. There is no word on price yet, but the F23, “is intended to sit at the apex of Sony’s pyramid of HD camera solutions.” This basically translates to, “you can dream all you want but you will never be able to afford one.” The F23 clocks in at 32 pounds and features Sony’s CineAlta 24P capabilities along with a slew of other features.


* 4:4:4 1920×1980 RGB imaging
* Three 2.2 megabit 2/3-inch progressive CCD imagers
* 14-bit A/D conversion
* Support for 1080/23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p, 50i and 59.94i formats
* Support for multi-frame rate and SR motion, with 4:2:2 Capture at up to 60 fps and 4:4:4 Capture at up to 30 fps

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” There is no hard timeline set, but we might see something around late 2008 or early 2009. Very cool.

Link:
http://www.digitalcamcordernews.com/posts/2006/12/560-sony-f23-cinealta-camcorder

 

[Tom Lowe]

Apex my ass. Maybe apex for Sony. They should have put out a camera with those features -- or better -- two years ago. They have been asleep at the wheel.

And where does the "4K" come in? Have they announced a 4K camera? By 2009 RED features will already be winning film awards and be sitting on home theater HD-DVD shelves.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Sony always have believed in pushing that envelope ............:rip_1:

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I recall reading the list price for the camera body alone was $115,000. It did not include the 'film mag' which is basically an SRW1...so estimates would be around 200K for a macked out unit. How many Red's can you get for that?

 

[Ace]

2/3 inch? Are they serious? Still a videoalta IMO.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” [/url]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…that you can use with your RED camera”

 

[Tom Lowe]

2/3 inch? Are they serious? Still a videoalta IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Apex of Sony? HA HA HA. Not even mentioning RED, the Genesis alone will smoke this thing and it's been around for a while.

 

[Finner]

That's what I was thinking. Apex of Sony? HA HA HA. Not even mentioning RED, the Genesis alone will smoke this thing and it's been around for a while.

The genesis is all sony guts. The genesis was a panavision/sony combo. The stats sony is showing for this camera actually exceeds the genesis in some ways. I think it will probably be fairly close to a genesis.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Yep -pretty much a Genesis but the SRW1 transport on top...Real innovation! Riight.

 

[Brainstorm]

The genesis is all sony guts. The genesis was a panavision/sony combo. The stats sony is showing for this camera actually exceeds the genesis in some ways. I think it will probably be fairly close to a genesis.

I got to see pics shot on a Genesis/Sony combo last night at a SMPTE workshop in Sydney, projected off a Sony 4K projector, and they looked pretty f#%*ing impressive to my eyes.

Shame about the price tag!

I also took great pleasure in asking the head of marketing for Sony Australia how they planned to deal with the fact that a 4K camera would be available within weeks for around $30k with lens. He looked very uncomfortable and wheeled out the "we'll have an entire 4K system with a couple of years" line.

Oooh. Watch that man squirm!

The head guys from AVID Australia came up to me afterwards and wanted to know everything I could tell them about RED. I emailed them info today and they're getting onto AVID in the USA overnight to ask RED data can be maximized in an AVID workflow.


One other interesting thing that came up: The Digital Cinema Initiative (which includes virtually all the major studios), the group trying to set the standards for digital distribution, have supposedly set a data limit of 660GB for digital features... so they can deliver them to the projectors via satellite and control every aspect of distribution, right down to remotely reading when a bulb needs changing in a projector. So.... 4K features will go out with JPEG2000 compression on them no matter what you deliver to the distributor/studio.

 

[MikeCurtis]

Torrie - that price is in line with rumors I've heard, so $180-$200K for F23 with SRW-1 recorder docked to it.

But it is scheduled to ship THIS year, not next - this spring is the last date I saw. I'd say 99% likelihood they'll have working units at NAB if not shipping by June. Saw Jeff Cree speak about it at Sundance, and he said he would have had it there to demo if not for a scheduling conflict.

-mike

 

[Finner]

I got to see pics shot on a Genesis/Sony combo last night at a SMPTE workshop in Sydney, projected off a Sony 4K projector, and they looked pretty f#%*ing impressive to my eyes.

Ya I've used the genesis before and it turns out fantastic images, so does the ARRI D20, I did some tests with it a few months ago. like I have mentioned before if the red puts out images at the level of the genesis or the D20 the RED will be fantastic. So many have mentioned on here how much better they think the red will be then other high level digital cinema cameras but having shot and tested these cameras I can confidently say that even if RED was to only match the quality of these cameras all buyers will be blown away.

 

[Ace]

The genesis is a full frame sensor. No point even mentioning it in comparison to sonys cameras.

 

[Finner]

The genesis is a full frame sensor. No point even mentioning it in comparison to sonys cameras.

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet. I would bet sony would use the majority of genesis technology. I am no fan of sony but this camera will probably be great. Just very expensive.

 

[Chris Kenny]

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet.

But the Genesis is, in fact, full frame (well, full width) and single-sensor. That means, like RED, it can use traditional cinematography lenses and get 35mm depth of field. The F23 won't do those things. Frankly this is somewhat strange, because the camera seems like overkill for the broadcast market, yet it lacks these capabilities, which are highly desirable for digital cinematography, and are largely the reason the Genesis was created in the first place.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Exactly. Genesis is full frame, not 2/3". That's why I said it smokes this F23, IMO.

 

[Finner]

I have a feeling sony may have signed some kind of 2 or 3 year non-competition contract with panavision when they teamed up to build the genesis. So if that is the case a sensor clause may be part of the contract. So a full frame sensor may be an upgrade to this new sony product or it may more likely come out with a second generation for more money in a little while.

 

[Ace]

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet. I would bet sony would use the majority of genesis technology. I am no fan of sony but this camera will probably be great. Just very expensive.

Doesnt matter if the genesis' max is 1080. The fact that its 1080 spread over a 35mm sensor means alot. Less noise, wider range, tone, and a sharper picture. The bottomline is, i would MUCH rather work with 1080 from a full frame sensor than 4K from a 2/3 inch sensor.

When it comes to sensors, bigger is better, regardless of resoloution (to a point). When you have larger photosites sampling a much larger imaging diameter from a lens, resoloution becomes the least important factor in the image quality equation.

4K is perfect for a s35 sensor. Not for 2/3.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…that you can use with your RED camera”

It's going to be fun seeing the Red's effect on Sony's sales...

 

[Andrew M.]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” There is no hard timeline set, but we might see something around late 2008 or early 2009. Very cool.

If I would be Sony exec I will work on how to buy RED company in 2008/2009 once RED proves itself as a good product. Maybe that is why they put 4K for 2009?
So guys love RED but have respect to forces of power…