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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F3

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Carsten Fenstermacher said:
"PMW-F3 firmware upgrade, Dual Link RGB / S-Log / 3G / Pre-Loaded 4 LUTS & 5 User LUT's for monitoring in S-Log mode, approx $3500.00"
http://twitter.com/#!/CineAltaNews/status/42450178967474176

Really?!
$3500 for a firmware upgrade?
For features already built into the camera?

View attachment 11913
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That makes the camera 19,500 for a 4:4:4 camera without lenses, in the grand scheme of things $3500 is cheap.
When it comes to the world of 4:4:4 in Sony the alternatives get into the $100+ range, this upgrade will be a big deal for low budget drama.
 
Interesting...but perhaps more appropriate for Off-Topic or even dvxuser.com?

Sony's new pay-to-use firmware definitely isn't RED discussion.
 
Michael Olsen said:
Interesting...but perhaps more appropriate for Off-Topic or even dvxuser.com?

Sony's new pay-to-use firmware definitely isn't RED discussion.
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I think this one can stay... I'd love to hear what people think about this. If this is OK with everyone, we sure look dumb for enabling features already built into the camera at no charge. :-)

Jim
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
That makes the camera 19,500 for a 4:4:4 camera without lenses, in the grand scheme of things $3500 is cheap.
When it comes to the world of 4:4:4 in Sony the alternatives get into the $100+ range, this upgrade will be a big deal for low budget drama.
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Not exactly.

For $19500 you get a camera with 444 outputs.

You still need a recorder to take advantage of that.

Right now the cheapest option is a Cinedeck Extreme.

So, your whole solution- camera and recorder- starts at about $29500.

Yes its a great bargain compared to an F35 or Alexa- but tis also not as good a camera.

So... why aren't you buying a RED One?

Probably because the workflow of a system like that, direct to edit, is important to you.

Epic can't get out there fast enough.

You can NOT use a RED One in the sorts workflows I am talking about for anything above Web 720p delivery. (Because the Red One's outputs are definitely not broadcast 720p)

I am expecting a broadcast quality 1080p HD-SDI tap on the Epics. Hopefully with 3G 444 output.

Now, I think that it makes an Epic X + Cinedeck combination closer to $40000, but then EPIC S + Cinedeck will be $25000 ish.

Both are serious competitors in the market I am talking about.

When you can play back 2 streams of Red 5K on a laptop in realtime at 1/2 debayer good or best quality, then this issue will be moot.

Until then having an RGB direct to edit workflow will be sort of a big deal.

So.... I expect at least 4 more years for laptops to handle this ... and the issue will sort of go away on its own.

Of course I still think if all you need is 1080p 10 bit 422 (and for a lot of users even THAT is overkill) the F3+KiPro Mini is pretty hot stuff.

A little overpriced with RED One out there today and EPIC S coming to market, but a very viable product.
 
Jannard said:
I think this one can stay... I'd love to hear what people think about this. If this is OK with everyone, we sure look dumb for enabling features already built into the camera at no charge. :-)

Jim
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I am kind of appalled at a $3500 firmware update.

If there was a hardware upgrade involved- perhaps a processor board or something, I might not like it but it would make sense.

I am sick and tired of abusive camera companies that think they hold all the cards.

So once again- thank you Jim for Red.

I will reiterate my request: I'd really like to see Red's notion of a Cinedeck Extreme. (Not a KiPro, or Nanoflash I think you could only compete there on price... but I'm willing to be surprised.)
 
Jannard said:
I'd love to hear what people think about this.
Click to expand...

Time and time again I've watched RED provide upgrades that other manufacturers would have never even offered as an option. The feature/ability would have just been shelved for a year or two and rolled into the next single-serving camera.

The fact that RED seems to treat the camera as an evolutionary piece of technological equipment and provides such developmental support for it is really something that has me excited to become a RED owner.

I like the idea of knowing that my camera will get better after I purchase it. Not just stagnate, only to become outdated when a new camera - essentially the same with only a few minor tweaks - is released a couple of years down the road.

I know some people hate the idea of a camera that may be a bit different six months from now as it is today. They want something they can buy and have it remain the same forever - quirks, problems, and all. But I find the organic nature of RED very alluring. The fact that footage shot years ago can be improved easily with a new version of the color science amazes me. The fact that relatively major features can be added to a camera already purchased to enhance its usability in a very real manner is fantastic. And the fact that, from RED, those enhancements are at no cost to the end-user whenever possible is something really great. In my opinion, it's setting the bar for companies to not only fix what may have been broken in a product it released, but actually work to continually improve it once it has been released, rather than just waiting to offer those improvements as a new, standalone product at roughly the same price point at a later date.
 
Jannard said:
I think this one can stay... I'd love to hear what people think about this. If this is OK with everyone, we sure look dumb for enabling features already built into the camera at no charge. :-)

Jim
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Honestly, I'm not too thrilled about it. Abel Cine called today to let me know my F3 kit had arrived. I honestly expected the firmware upgrade to be around $1,000, which seems reasonable.

Wish I had read the $3500 speculation before I paid my balance. I would have definitely voiced my displeasure. In the end, I'll probably pay for the upgrade but I won't like it.

I already own the Cinedeck Extreme and have really fallen in love with the ability to shoot raw AND uncompressed with my Viper. It wouldn't make sense for me not to upgrade the F3, in order to make use of the gear I already own.
 
Also, don't forget about the upcoming 4:4:4 uncompressed recorder from Convergent Designs. recording to dual SSD, half the price of the Cinedeck.
 
Aaron Newsome said:
Also, don't forget about the upcoming 4:4:4 uncompressed recorder from Convergent Designs. recording to dual SSD, half the price of the Cinedeck.
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That would be nice but I found no mention of such a beast on the net.

Is there linkage?
 
I give it 48 hours from the firmware going live to when there's a hacked firmware loader and image available. Sony really screwed the pooch on this one. Only thing that will stop that is if there's a need to physically swap anything inside the camera, which I'm 99.9% sure there isn't.
 
Carsten Fenstermacher said:
"PMW-F3 firmware upgrade, Dual Link RGB / S-Log / 3G / Pre-Loaded 4 LUTS & 5 User LUT's for monitoring in S-Log mode, approx $3500.00"
http://twitter.com/#!/CineAltaNews/status/42450178967474176

Really?!
$3500 for a firmware upgrade?
For features already built into the camera?

View attachment 11913
Click to expand...

It seems that Sony will never learn. They got lucky that Jim hit some delays with Scarlet and Epic. They should have taken that time to completely change their business model. They should have dropped to their knees and begged forgiveness for a decade of fleecing their customers and withholding technology. But instead, it is now clear that Sony intends to keep on with their BS business practices all the way up until the end... which is coming soon. At this point, Sony is like Thelma and Louise heading for the cliff, foot still on the gas pedal.

Jim is about to put Cine Alta out of business, and they will have no one to blame but themselves.
 
Hell, even with that firmware upgrade the camera is still only capable of 30fps in 1080p right? So that would be 30fps and 4:2:0 internal recording for $13k? Are they joking? Even with S-log, it's still a joke. If I'm going to spend over $10k I want to AT LEAST shoot 1080p over 60fps. The F3 would be great if it were under $5k... considering that we have cameras like the little $900 GH2 is resolving close to 1000 lines with better DR than Panasonic's own AF-100 in the same color space. What the hell are these "big manufacturers" thinking? On top of that, they are charging $3500 just to ENABLE features on the camera? Even if you're a rental house and can afford Sony's shenanigans (I NEVER buy Sony products for reasons like this, not even their TVs) you should just be refusing to use the F3. Sony can only get away with this if people buy into it.

The F3 was obsolete on conception alone. Why is this camera getting so much praise everywhere? YOUR SPITE FOR DSLRS IS LETTING SONY TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE!
 
Bryce O said:
Hell, even with that firmware upgrade the camera is still only capable of 30fps in 1080p right?
Click to expand...

Wrong, it will do 1080/60p over dual link.

I'm not sure why people get so angry about Sony.... they have their way of doing things and you don't have to follow them.

If you don't like Sony, get a RED One or wait for an Epic/Scarlet. Simple.

But Sony's business practices shouldn't be hailed as some devilish enterprise compared to RED. RED are a breath of fresh air, but they have the luxury of being backed by a billionaire owner. If RED were a startup with limited finances, then maybe things might be very different.

That said, $3500 seems excessive and I think Sony need to explain themselves on that price and also the reason the announcement came after many people had already purchased/ordered.
 
Stephen Gentle said:
Do you mean as a distribution or an acquisition format? RED RAY's codec is designed only for use in distribution.
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So are mpeg2 and mpeg4 originally - but they're successfully used for acquisition nevertheless.

I would gladly welcome a low bandwidth codec with in-camera demosaicing with the new Red cameras, as an option. This would open up many new uses for the cameras. Often getting the utmost top quality isn't the first concern, but the speed of file transfers and conversions etc. is.
 
Tom Lowe said:
It seems that Sony will never learn. They got lucky that Jim hit some delays with Scarlet and Epic. They should have taken that time to completely change their business model. They should have dropped to their knees and begged forgiveness for a decade of fleecing their customers and withholding technology. But instead, it is now clear that Sony intends to keep on with their BS business practices all the way up until the end... which is coming soon. At this point, Sony is like Thelma and Louise heading for the cliff, foot still on the gas pedal.

Jim is about to put Cine Alta out of business, and they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Click to expand...

Yup. That's pretty much it, sir.
 
Jannard said:
I think this one can stay... I'd love to hear what people think about this. If this is OK with everyone, we sure look dumb for enabling features already built into the camera at no charge. :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

I think you wanna keep this thread to laugh some on other companies's polices for dealing with their users..
 
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