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Sony F3 RGB 444 module vs Red Scarlet/Epic Raw?

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Aaron Cheater

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Recently a friend of mine asked me what I thought of the new Sony F3. Being a fan of Red, I said the s35 sensor was good but it still only shot at 1920x1080 and didn't shoot raw. He then proceeded to tell me that the F3 could shoot raw 'out the back' by way of a module which converts the signal coming from the sxs cards to RGB 444. What I was wondering was, how can a camera that doesn't natively shoot raw have its footage converted to a 'raw' format? Wouldn't it be like up scaling a DVD to the resolution of a bluray, or re sampling an mp3 that was originally 192kbps to 320 or something?

He also made a comment about how lazy DoP's were getting if they needed to shoot raw in the first place, and something about how he didn't think any cinematographers working with Sony F35's would miss not shooting on a Red. I was going to say that if I could get a camera that shot higher than HD, raw natively, and also had arguable better Dynamic Range than film all for the same price as the Sony F3, I would go for that any day. But I didn't think of that until just now.

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. Feel free to move it if it is.

Bring on the Epic Light!
 
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It wouldn't be raw, it'd be uncompressed 444. Nothing I've read so far indicates otherwise, and if you could record to a pseudo-raw out the back of a F3, you could use the same device to do it with any other camera that has a decent enough output. Actually, I read that the SxS cards only record 35mbit 4:2:0 (or maybe 4:2:2), and another recorder was needed to get anything higher than that.

Yes, going to uncompressed would have more wiggle room in post. No, it wouldn't be as much as raw.

On the flipside, unless you're using proxies, eventually you're gonna be baking the image a bit when you render out of RC/RG or whatever, and conversion always takes time (even with a RR). So if you can do it in front of the camera, chances are you'd be better off as you'd save some time/money. Image quality subjectiveness aside, that's one of the main reasons why I think cameras like Alexa and SI2k and F23 and F35 (etc. etc.) are still relevant in spite of a cheaper raw alternative being available (R1).
 
Rob Delafonte said:
Image quality subjectiveness aside, that's one of the main reasons why I think cameras like Alexa and SI2k and F23 and F35 (etc. etc.) are still relevant in spite of a cheaper raw alternative being available (R1).
Click to expand...

Except that raw isn't really cheaper at the moment, as both the rental houses and the post houses realize that they have to compete with raw, so rental and post for HD uncompressed cameras is dirt cheap right now. The production I'm on got suckered into renting Genesis over Red because Panavision is renting Genesis for $800 a week, and the post houses are following suit, realizing they'd better milk the last nickel out of those HD Cam decks while they still can. Meanwhile a rental house I know has 13 Epics on order...the writing is on the wall...
 
Sony F3 RGB 444

Sony F3 RGB 444

Aaron Cheater said:
F3 could shoot raw 'out the back' by way of a module which converts the signal coming from the sxs cards to RGB 444.
Click to expand...

This could be achieved via 3G SDI or an HD-SDI ExpressCard. [Not an SXS Card]

Still High Definition but with better Raw RGB material for post editing.
 
Rob Delafonte said:
It wouldn't be raw, it'd be uncompressed 444.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my friend seemed convinced that RGB 444 and raw were one in the same. I didn't think they were, but then I didn't know enough about it at the time to correct him.

James Andrew said:
This could be achieved via 3G SDI or an HD-SDI ExpressCard. [Not an SXS Card]
Click to expand...

I remember reading that in the press release too, so I'm not sure why he mentioned SXS cards. Maybe he just got confused or something.
 
James Andrew said:
This could be achieved via 3G SDI or an HD-SDI ExpressCard. [Not an SXS Card]

Still High Definition but with better Raw RGB material for post editing.
Click to expand...

I thought the Alexa records ProRes 4:4:4:4 to SxS.
 
Just to chime in here of what my perception is - As far as I know - I believe that the camera outputs 10 bit 4:4:4 s-log spat out of the dual HD-SDI ports to whatever recorder you can find that can handle the 3G bandwith. Sony claim it's as good as getting the goodness of the sensor data. Anyway - I got a copy of the SR recordings for the first city of London shoot that everyone is raving about ( e-mailed the DOP ) and although it was in the video colour space when I began pushing and pullling the footage in speedgrade there was only a little wiggle room. I propose that even with a flat image - my two cents - it ain't like raw. I played with some Redcode RAW files the other day and that is like playing with RAW files in lightroom. It's amazing. But without samples of the 10 Bit S-log 4:4:4 - I am just speculating.
 
The press release on that F3 said that it would be able to record 444 S.log to an external recorder. Technically S.log isn't RAW but I've worked with it using the F35 and SRW-9000 cameras and I've been able to dig A LOT more off the SR tape in grading than I've ever been able to with (pre-MX) Red One. It's pretty amazing stuff to work with, the workflow is clean and simple. If the job didn't require overcranking past 50fps I'd happily shoot F35/Genesis over Red One any day just to get away from CMOS headaches.

Resolution argument just goes round and round. If Sony were to rate their sensors the way Red does (counting every pixel on the chip), Sony would be using 6K sensors since they're delivering 1920x1080 resolution on every channel (RGB).

Henry: in camera prep I did a simple test. Light a tight scene with a Macbeth chart a few coloured objects and a persons face to f/8 and roll a stop up/down a half stop at a time until I'm clipping, then bring the material to post and in a proper colour grading room (Quantel Pablo) with a real colourist, try to grade the over/under exposed footage back to the +/-0 reference as close as possible and see where the image is falling apart.

With the F35 and SRW-9000 recording S.log to HDCamSR, 444HQ 440Mb/s I can get 4 full stops over exposed graded right back to reference to the point that it's almost impossible to tell the difference. I've done the same test with (a pre-MX sensor'd) Red One and could get about 1 stop over before highlights in flesh tones started burning out to a point that I couldn't salvage them.

I'm not trying to plant a Sony flag in Red land, but there are many DP's shooting F35/Genesis not just because the camera was on sale.
 
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Hi Paul - very insightful - thanks - I have never worked with S-log material and if you say it's that good - I'll believe you. Best wishes.
 
I'm not 100% on this, but my understanding is...

The Sony F3 that is shipping soon will not come enabled for 10-bit 4:4:4 and/or S-log.

There will be an additional "upgrade" of some sort, later on, that will allow that functionality. I am of the understanding that it will not be "cheap".

Even with that upgrade, there is still the need to use a 10-bit 4:4:4 recorder. Which are also generally not "cheap".

So, based on what I have gleaned, the F3 will be a 10:bit 4:2:2 recorder as a base package with the ability to shoot 35mbs SxS onboard proxies. If you spend more on the 4:4:4 upgrade package and a recorder, then you can have 4:4:4 and S-log. But it won't be a $15,000 camera anymore, either.

Again, this is just my understanding. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I may have a camera I need to buy.

--

Which raises another question of mine - what sort of image is this camera going to be putting out in terms of color? I've always understood that without significant oversampling, a bayer naturally resolves somewhere between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2. So will this camera oversample enough to get close to 4:4:4? Or will the 4:4:4 capability basically just be a nice bragging right while really recording ~4:2:2 information in a 4:4:4 stream?
 
The sensor pattern doesn't directly relate to chroma sub-sampling on a codec. The two are different things, and to co-mingle them is misleading. What you need to do is measure the output. If you have a 4:2:2 output codec, you shouldn't be able to measure chroma resolution to be more than half, but it still could measure less, just as luma could very well measure less than full resolution. It's still a 4:2:2 codec though. Similarly, on a 4:4:4 system (like the F35) you could measure less on the resolution than you'd expect even on a 4:4:4 recording.

I don't understand why s-log costs more. It's math is little different from REDLog and ViperLog, or Panalog. I can see why a 4:4:4 output costs more, but in this case it sounds to me like a firmware turn-on rather than a new output block on the camera.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
The sensor pattern doesn't directly relate to chroma sub-sampling on a codec. The two are different things, and to co-mingle them is misleading. What you need to do is measure the output. If you have a 4:2:2 output codec, you shouldn't be able to measure chroma resolution to be more than half, but it still could measure less, just as luma could very well measure less than full resolution. It's still a 4:2:2 codec though. Similarly, on a 4:4:4 system (like the F35) you could measure less on the resolution than you'd expect even on a 4:4:4 recording.

I don't understand why s-log costs more. It's math is little different from REDLog and ViperLog, or Panalog. I can see why a 4:4:4 output costs more, but in this case it sounds to me like a firmware turn-on rather than a new output block on the camera.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, Graeme.

My understanding is that they are basically selling the S-log functionality as part and parcel of the 4:4:4 functionality. Doesn't make sense to me...as you said, everyone should be able to have it, not just those who want 4:4:4.

Quote from their site:
RGB and S-Log output will be available as a future optional RGB and 3G SDI software upgrade, allowing for a seemless workflow for high-end content creation with HDCAM-SR series products.
Click to expand...

They don't say it will cost. But they don't say it'll be free, either.
 
Jim Retar said:
Let's just wait and see then... it might be a free firmware update, just something they couldn't get finished for launch in Feb. Epic is gonna ship with features missing too, so let's not jump the gun and start assuming things.
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Good call.
 
Thanks for that Graeme. I don't want to just be spreading FUD. I knew I had seen price come up at least once in regard to the upgrade.
 
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