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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F3, Red contender?

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Rob Delafonte said:
I don't see the pricepoint either; Sony may have something up their sleeve but at present the only advantage over the (much cheaper) af100+nanoflash is that it's aps-c... For a similar price why not get 4k and redraw? When you're talking 10s of thousands, $1500 difference between red1 body and the F3 body isn't that much... Or am I missing something?
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Red1 is $25K. No longer $17,500
 
Rob Delafonte said:
I don't see the pricepoint either; Sony may have something up their sleeve but at present the only advantage over the (much cheaper) af100+nanoflash is that it's aps-c... For a similar price why not get 4k and redraw? When you're talking 10s of thousands, $1500 difference between red1 body and the F3 body isn't that much... Or am I missing something?
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The only thing I can come up with is it is available Jan 2011. Scarlet S35 does not have a release date.
 
They actually seem as coy about sensor rez as Arri are about weight. Either way, whether the sensor has heaps of rez or very little, a camera the records the rez the sensor outputs wins hands down.

Yeah, it'll sell like hotcakes. People, for some reason, buy the Sony BS and snap their gear up by the truckload. I think the Panny looks a better deal until Scarlet ships.
 
Michael Hastings said:
So you think the body will fall apart?
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Even though some professionals will use it, IMHO it is not really a "Professional" camera.

That being said, as a Producer I know why it will get selected for some jobs. :nonod:
 
I think the biggest difference between Sony and Red is that Sony releases products with the least advancement that they can get away with. They are only interested in ticking the boxes of meeting the absolute minimums required by broadcasters.

The Red offers no compromise, give me the best, approach.

One driven by bureaucratic fat-arsed Japanese product managers and the other by a passionate entrepreneur and film-making enthusiast (Jim and the team). Those different drivers attract two distinctive client groups. :smilewinkgrin:
 
Well have to wait and see if true image quality counts enough in the end.

The F3 will probably make nice pictures out of the box in less demanding situations. But, like the F35 it will need lots of tweaking in complex menus to handle difficult lighting situations.

That's the area where RED shines, because of RAW – in the hands of a good colorist!

But I'm optimistic. Color grading used to be a black art (no pun intended) for years and very expensive. Apple changed, and now Blackmagic is changing it even more. People are willing to learn, I'm sure. There are books from Steve Hullfish and (soon) Alex van Hurkman to teach them. So, if enough talented colorists with proper grading suites are around, RED will shine.

If not, crap may win. Bad ole "good enough" attitude…
 
Pawel Achtel said:
...

One driven by bureaucratic fat-arsed Japanese product managers...
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Well, there are two things evident in this post. The better of which is that you like to look at product managers' arses.
 
Michael Hastings said:
People seem to forget that there is a line of 5 to 7 thousand RED1 owners that are ahead of any new purchaser of an Epic. If previous estimates of 700 per month production are correct (don't recall where that came from exactly so any update is appreciated) and even if RED starts to ship in quantity by the F3 launch in Feb 2011, that's a ten month window...................
QUOTE]

So you are are confident that all of RED owners will buy EPIC? I dont think so, even 50% of them not upgraded RED1 to MX with just 5K. EPIC is more complex to work with. 5K workflow needs more horse power. EPIC is going to be avilable to new buyers soon.
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Michael Hastings said:
People seem to forget that there is a line of 5 to 7 thousand RED1 owners that are ahead of any new purchaser of an Epic. If previous estimates of 700 per month production are correct (don't recall where that came from exactly so any update is appreciated) and even if RED starts to ship in quantity by the F3 launch in Feb 2011, that's a ten month window...................
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C. Jagan Mohan said:
So you are are confident that all of RED owners will buy EPIC? I dont think so, even 50% of them not upgraded RED1 to MX with just 5K. EPIC is more complex to work with. 5K workflow needs more horse power. EPIC is going to be avilable to new buyers soon.
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I think they should. I actually like the look of this Sony F3 and think there is a substantial market for it at its price point/feature set - but that doesn't change the fact that I think the Epic is WAY ahead of any other camera - and there are plenty that will line up to get it.

Even if someone in stage 3 doesn't have the funds, if they are smart they will sell their opportunity (i.e. presell it) to get an Epic-X - so yes I think the number will be very high. And if RED does a stage 2 and a half where they can still keep their R1 then that number will approach 100%. (which may be a reason they won't do that if they would prefer to move on to where they are selling Epics for full price. It also makes sense that they will start to sell Scarlet S35 concurrently as a way to combat the F3 and since it may be nearly as profitable as discounted Epic-Xs) Jim's pretty smart - he'll figure it out.
 
even with Dual link HD-Sdi and an outboard recorder this is too little too late for me...

I think once you pass the $10,000 threshold there is no reason to buy any other camera than a Red.

The AF-100 is neat because it is cheap. You sacrifice a lot, but it's cheap.

If this was the same price as the AF-100, then it might be a contender for the sub-$7000 market.

I'll take a Gh-2 as a crash cam, throw-away cam any day before the F3.
 
Evin Grant said:
The only onboard option is 8bit 4:2:0 at 35mbit. That's the same as a 5D isn't it?
You add a Kipro and get 10bit 4:2:2 Prores, but that seems a bit inconvenient. I suppose if you want a direct to edit solution that's convenient, but really? Epic and Scarlet are going to eat it's lunch and call it's mom names.
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To be fair, no. 5D gobbles up its compression on aliasing which cannot compress well- so a 5D would be the equivalent of 5-6 mbit in the quality of the output, depending on the shot. Also, numbers mean nothing when it comes to compression and Sony does have a really great flavour of long-gop.

What's interesting about this cam is that you can get a servo 35mm zoom lens for 7K more. Add a $3K Nanon, and you have an awesome ENG cam with much nicer pic quality than an AF100 in terms of dynamic range. Servo 35 zooms are very, very expensive. It's like they're giving you the body for free, if the lens is any good.

Is MX, let alone Epic, way way better for cinema applications? YES. But for ENG this will be a really good option, I think.
 
Bryce O said:
Yes I am serious...

At the core, what technology is in this Sony cam that warrants the $20k price tag over a $800 one.

It's not the 35mm sensor... that can be had in an $800 camera body.

It's not sensitivity... only 800 iso? 5D is fairly clean up into the 2000's.

It's not the codec... XDCAM 4:2:0 35mbs vs H.264 4:2:0 45mbs

So I am serious... Is it just because Sony labels it as "pro", puts in a big "pro-looking" shell and adds some uncompressed output (which is nice, don't get me wrong) and a few more histograms?

Hell it can't even do 60fps in 1080p! Does anyone else see anything wrong with that? That this $20k "pro" camera is only capable of the frame-rate and resolution of a $800 DSLR? Granted the Sony will probably resolve a little more detail... but doesn't anyone else see what I'm talking about?

Thank God for Epic. Sony's corporate BS of trying to protect their obsolete monstrous F35 is getting old. Canon and Red have set the tech standards IMO. 1080p 35mm video should not cost more than $3000 and 5k 120fps video should not cost more than... well, I guess Red is the only company doing it.
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Even an Ex1 looks far, far better than any DSLR in 1080p - if you can't see that as a startling difference of sharpness, color fidelity, especially in the darks and compression cleanliness buy a new monitor or see an optometrist
 
Rob Delafonte said:
I don't see the pricepoint either; Sony may have something up their sleeve but at present the only advantage over the (much cheaper) af100+nanoflash is that it's aps-c... For a similar price why not get 4k and redraw? When you're talking 10s of thousands, $1500 difference between red1 body and the F3 body isn't that much... Or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

No, the advantage is better color fidelity and much better dynamic range - the Af100 looks might clippy to me.
 
But don't forget that you can rent or even buy Canon HJ15ex8.5B with Vari-Angle Prism Image Stabilizer (VAP-IS) technology for $34,800.00 and with 2/3 to 4/3 adapter run in teleconverter mode at GH2 (also probably with AF100).

That's make those two cameras very attractive for any kind of documentary shooting and "ensuring a solid, stable image during handheld shooting involving physical disturbances such as running, walking, moving vehicles, boats, helicopters, etc."

Here you can see the quality image at one test example that shot in teleconverter mode with GH2>>>

The picture perfect, no aliasing, moire,...

That means inside GH2 body you'll get also 2/3" and also super16mm camera!!!!
 
Dan Kanes said:
I think once you pass the $10,000 threshold there is no reason to buy any other camera than a Red.
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I can think of one pretty obvious reason. There is nothing in the RED line up (1 camera, currently) that costs between $10,000 and $25,000.. that is before you even begin to kit it out like an F3.

When Scarlet s35 arrives, you will probably have a valid point... but even then, RED cannot match Sony for distribution and service centers. Not everything is about the image specs.
 
Jim Retar said:
...RED cannot match Sony for distribution and service centers. Not everything is about the image specs.
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Huh? From my experience Sony has very poor service despite having many service centres.

As for distribution, if you are willing to part with twice as much smackeroonies for a comfort of purchasing Sony camera in Australia instead of US or Japan, than obviously Sony is for you.

The reason Red can keep prices down is because they are lean and not have to pay fat salaries to fat distributors around the world.
 
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