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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F23 VS Red

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blacksunday666

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Link to Sony F23 CineAlta sample footage.
http://www.jonfordham.com/thursdayf23.html

Interesting as a comparison to the high quality Red footage posted thus far. Remarkably for a camera of such a 'high' perigee i.e. Cinealta, this looks like very good HVX200 footage (coming from their high end camera range that’s a liability).
Sony are in big trouble.
 
blacksunday666 said:
Link to Sony F23 CineAlta sample footage.
http://www.jonfordham.com/thursdayf23.html

Interesting as a comparison to the high quality Red footage posted thus far. Remarkably for a camera of such a 'high' perigee i.e. Cinealta, this looks like very good HVX200 footage (coming from their high end camera range that’s a liability).
Sony are in big trouble.
Click to expand...

Maybe they were going for that high contrast, blown highlights, sharpened look...?
 
At such a small resolution not a lot can be deduced. I don't imagine Red would look any different downsampled so much. Film would only look different in the highlights (more natural roll off) and that's only if they cared enough to retain them.
 
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Sony F23 VS Red

I'm not disputing the look their trying to achieve from a visual standpoint, it’s just the way the camera deals with the highlights i.e. heavily clipped (in a video way). It’s the technical result which I’m being critical of. The Red Cam stuff looks very organic in comparision or dare I say 'filmic'.
 
To me there are two things about it that make it look "video"--high shutter speed and a very deep DOF. Neither of those actually bother me as I liked the color grading because it worked with the style of music. Although, if you added a shallow DOF, do you think it would still look "videoish"?

Edit: I believe the highlights are supposed to be clipped because that's the look of the video (or, during the export to H264, the highlights got clipped.) Considering the fact that the video looks like it cost a good chunk of change, I would say that if they didn't want to clip the highlights--they wouldn't have.

Matthew
 
macville said:
To me there are two things about it that make it look "video"--high shutter speed and a very deep DOF. Neither of those actually bother me as I liked the color grading because it worked with the style of music. Although, if you added a shallow DOF, do you think it would still look "videoish"?
Click to expand...


It all comes down to what lenses you use and how open you shoot. On an aperture of around 4 with cine lenses it will look better. Maybe there should be a lesson learnt here? To me, footage with RED that has not been shot with Zeiss, Cooke's or other cine lenses looks similar to this (that's an individual observation). So if you guys don't like this then you need to take out your wallet and forget about the birger mount and especially the B4 lens.

(as I said this is a personal opinion)


fred
 
Slinnn said:
I think this has a lot to do with color grading.
But yes, it looks very video-ish...
I'm sure the F23 can do better than that.
Click to expand...

Hi,

The F23 is an amazing camera in the right hands, a good 12 stops dynamic range IMO.

Stephen
 
An F23 and Red are apples and oranges. Think shows with multiple cameras, Live to tape production, etc.
A different tool for different applications. We all know the RED is amazing in what it can do...especially for the price.
However alot of producers and production companies still want shoot tape. This is a fact. It's the reason why the Panasonic HDX900 is so popular in the EPF rental market and will continue to be. I don't know the specific numbers, but from what I've seen the HDX is far more widespread (in the production market) than it's P2 variant, the HPX2000.
Most of us here are glad to work with CF cards but there is a huge market segment that is well paid and established that still want tapes at the end of the day.
Hopefully when Red offers a 1080 output this will allow it to compete directly with the F23.
 
weirdcrew said:
It all comes down to what lenses you use and how open you shoot. On an aperture of around 4 with cine lenses it will look better. Maybe there should be a lesson learnt here? To me, footage with RED that has not been shot with Zeiss, Cooke's or other cine lenses looks similar to this (that's an individual observation). So if you guys don't like this then you need to take out your wallet and forget about the birger mount and especially the B4 lens.
Click to expand...

Sorry? Are you really saying all photography (still/moving) shot with Nikon or Canon lenses looks like this video?
 
macville said:
To me there are two things about it that make it look "video"--high shutter speed and a very deep DOF.
Click to expand...
The DOF is what does it for me, too. Of course it is possible to obtain wide ranges of focus with the RED, but I personally like the power of choosing where the viewer's eye travels in the frame. It's a powerful storytelling device. As it's been pointed out, it's difficult to judge things like resolution and color gamut from a small web clip, so I don't think it's fair to be too critical of those properties based on this sample. But the F23 will never natively approach RED's DOF, and in many cases this is going to subconsciously lend itself to having a "video" look, intentional or not. I'm really glad we have other options today.
 
Hi Häakon,

Shooting wide open with digiprimes equals about a T2.8 - 4 split with 35mm, so it's actually very possible to obtain 35mm like DOF with a camera like the F23 or a Viper.

Remember the Red 18-50 is a T3 so I don't think the difference is as important as many people make out.

Stephen

Edit, I actually did a shot with a Viper, the focus puller needed 100 takes to get focus, that was after stopping down to a T2.5

Stephen
 
I would like to have seen this same footage shot with HVX and Red for a true comparison. It all comes down to lighting, CC and dynamic range. Everything else is lens choice.

I can talk all day long about how I think it looks good and could pass for a HD TC DI from a film source, but I'll just end up talking to myself. I'm a huge fan of classic film so DOF just isn't enough for me for those out there who are DOF advocates to the death. DOF helps to suspend belief for digital sources so I guess it would be useful in this case.
 
blacksunday666 said:
Link to Sony F23 CineAlta sample footage.
http://www.jonfordham.com/thursdayf23.html

Interesting as a comparison to the high quality Red footage posted thus far. Remarkably for a camera of such a 'high' perigee i.e. Cinealta, this looks like very good HVX200 footage (coming from their high end camera range that’s a liability).
Sony are in big trouble.
Click to expand...

I think it looks pretty damn good actually. I want to see some Red footage like this
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

The F23 is an amazing camera in the right hands, a good 12 stops dynamic range IMO.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Where did you get this info Stephen? It seems like a much higher # then I have heard. BTW I see in the 9-10 stop range for red footage in what I can tell from the images I have seen.
 
blacksunday666 said:
Link to Sony F23 CineAlta sample footage.
http://www.jonfordham.com/thursdayf23.html

Interesting as a comparison to the high quality Red footage posted thus far. Remarkably for a camera of such a 'high' perigee i.e. Cinealta, this looks like very good HVX200 footage (coming from their high end camera range that’s a liability).
Sony are in big trouble.
Click to expand...

This is a well shot music video.

Not videoish at all. Actually it shows how well high-end Sony cameras with digiprimes and the likes perform. It's got its own look, so does RED. Noboy is forced to buy a Sony F23.

RED has got the ability to create less DOF but both have nearly the same latitude AFAIK. My experience with these cameras (F900R a lot) is not bad at all. Yes, you need Digiprimes and CC, to achive results as the one posted above. But the same with RED - you need a good lens. B4 Adaptor and video zooms will cut down REDs performance considerably as they do on Sony Cine Altas.

I am sure we will see tons of bad footage shot with RED.

Hans
 
RED is RED, plain and simple, but company philosophy, policies and pricing aside, you'd be fooling yourself to think Sony Cine Alta cameras make "bad" images. If you look at the test shots from Claudio Miranda, the F23 visibly outperforms the Viper, and it has that beautiful, full sony colorimetry. We can bash Sony all we want, and justly so, in many respects but they DON'T make lousy cameras. They make amazing tools, stratospherically priced yes, but save for RED, there's nothing out there, Panasonic or what have you, that approaches the quality of Sony.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Häakon,

Shooting wide open with digiprimes equals about a T2.8 - 4 split with 35mm, so it's actually very possible to obtain 35mm like DOF with a camera like the F23 or a Viper.

Remember the Red 18-50 is a T3 so I don't think the difference is as important as many people make out.

Stephen

Edit, I actually did a shot with a Viper, the focus puller needed 100 takes to get focus, that was after stopping down to a T2.5

Stephen
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,

I am with you, especially with the focus puller thing... But isn't shooting with CineAltas like fighting for shallow DOF? I cannot remember one shot I've done with Sony CinaAltas above f2.8.

35mm is much more flexible IMO and so will be RED.


Hans
 
Sony F23 VS Red

This clip does not suggest a quantum leap in improvement over the Sony HDW-F900/950, which is what one would expect for the price point. No doubt there has been some pretty good looking material shot on Sony F900/950 cinealta: Wolf Creek, Rouge, Sin City etc, I just expected more from Sony.
Have the Claudio Miranda F23 test shots being posted yet ? Anxious to see a direct head to head between RED & Sony F23.

This whole open DOF of field in video argument becomes a little fragile when you consider the work of Orson Wells, a staunch advocate of deep focus in his pictures. See Magnificent Ambersons (Stanley Cortez) or Citizen Kane (Greg Toland). There seems little value in attributing something that has deep focus properties or open depth of field to being shot on video or being 'video-like'.
 
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