sonnet expresscard to thunderbolt adapter

[joe hedge]

EDIT: Jeff Kilgore... doesn't this also have bus limitations on the Express 34 that kind of defeats the TB speed advantage. Jeff is an expert on this stuff.

The latest word from Dr Kildare:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...b-red-ssd-card&p=903557&highlight=#post903557

I used one last night to move about 800 gigs of transcodes from a 1TB G-Drive to a brand new, empty 2TB G-Drive, took 4.5 hours, which is around 3 TB a minute, just a little faster than FW 800

I suspect the pcie 1.0 standard the adapter is manufactured with is a factor in it being that slow, considering returning it but it might be a good SxS card reader if Sony writes the driver for it...

EDIT: Apparently a more recent post from Dr. Kildare was being posted while I wrote this...

 

[Bob Gundu]

Always an enlightening read Jeff. Thanks for your insight.

Actually this one has been discussed already on a couple other threads... But here we go again...

Sonnet F'd this one up. The adapter could have been awesome, instead it's just a half-assed Mary Sue attempt. What's wrong with it?

1> Only supports ExpressCard 1.x.
2> Only one ExpressCard slot.
3> Only one Thunderbolt port (no pass-thru)


To clarify some of the questions or statements above -- It doesn't matter how fast Thunderbolt is, or aspires to be, you are limited to a maximum of 250MB/s throughput with this adapter. That is the upper most speed limit with the ExpressCard 1.x specification. It could have been 500MB/s if Sonnet had chose to support ExpressCard 2.0. But no... WTF?

Why only one ExpressCard slot? This could have been the bees knees, and tits as well, if they would have made a unit with 2 or 3 slots. It could have been a SxS offloading powerhouse adapter... Once again, WTF? Oh, wait, no EC2.0 support, I guess we can forget about the upcoming SxS Enhanced and Pro models working with this. Hey maybe we can all buy the upgraded model that they might choose to make 8 months from now that actually offers some of these features!

No pass-through port.... OMG... This is the ultimate way to dead-end your Thunderbolt product. In more ways than one. Intel has got to be kicking their own ass for not mandating a pass-through port. Apparently making a strong suggestion that devices really should have this wasn't enough. As for the port being expensive? Um, no... Intel currently makes all the Thunderbolt interface chipsets, this means both the host interface which gets incorporated on a system motherboard as well as the on-device hosts. You know what? The on-device hosts all include a dual-port interface. Adding a second port on the device for pass-through or daisy-chaining is literally as simple as attaching the chipset circuitry to power and the connector. So that means it's as simple or as complicated as the device integrator wants to make it. Thunderbolt connectors are somewhat expensive at the moment as they have active electronics in them. That's why the cables are $50 and only available a couple places. This will change as production increases and more manufacturers get on-board with Thunderbolt.

PC's will be getting Thunderbolt in the coming months. All upcoming Intel chipsets have the Thunderbolt host integrated into them. With Sandy Bridge, PC motherboard makers would have to buy the Thunderbolt header as a separate chipset to integrate. It's one of those catch-22 situations where none of them are willing because it could easily add $25 to $50 in cost to the end user to add Thunderbolt and there are no real devices on the market to support it just yet. Sure, BMD, AJA have stuff. Sonnet, LaCie, Promise, CalDigit, that's pretty much it. A bunch more coming though. And with the host controller right on the chipsets (starting with the soon to be released Ivy Bridge mobile platform), manufacturers now just have to hook it up. Intel made a big deal about 45 days ago about Ivy Bridge and how they were done with it ahead of schedule. Sounded great that the chipset was done, but the CPUs are not... Looks like current rumors are placing it on track for an April release.

Desktop class chipsets with Thunderbolt probably won't release until 4th quarter 2012... Server/Workstation Xeon chipsets are due real soon and *should* include Thunderbolt. However, the chipsets are behind schedule, the CPUs are already done. I haven't seen the final specs though. Most people are predicting a launch around the first of February.


Anyway, back on track about the Sonnet Echo ExpressCard thing... It could be great, but it looks like they didn't know who they were making the product for or why they were making it. My theory on the lack of the pass-through port is that they wanted to meet a certain price point and that was a sure way to shave off $10 or so on the final retail price. Which makes no sense... I can order the stupid thing a few places for $150. I'd pay $200 if it had the pass-thru, but I can't. The lack of the pass-thru (and lack of ExpressCard 2.0 spec) will most likely keep me from ordering. I've lived an entire year (almost) without an ExpressCard slot on my 15" MBP (got one on the 17")... I don't see a reason to buy one now.

No pass-thru is not the end of the world. Thankfully other devices have them. But not all do...

 

[joe hedge]

Sure, BMD, AJA have stuff. Sonnet, LaCie, Promise, CalDigit, that's pretty much it. A bunch more coming though.

I was told a few days ago by whoever answered the phone at G-Tech that Thunderbolt G-Raids were "weeks away", no pricing or speed specs as yet.

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Just looking for a great solution to the esata port since new iMacs dot have it. Wanted to get around usin the FireWire 800 port on the REDStation.

 

[Tehben Dean]

When RED comes out with TB REDstations and there are a few more TB drives out there we can skip eSATA altogether and the Sonnet screw-up will be a moot point

Great post Jeff! thanks!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I was told a few days ago by whoever answered the phone at G-Tech that Thunderbolt G-Raids were "weeks away", no pricing or speed specs as yet.

FWIW, I was told that very same thing by someone at G-Tech back in October. Hopefully they will arrive soon, we need more options and competition.

I currently own the 6-drive Promise TB RAID (connected to an iMac) and the 2TB LaCie TB LBD. Both are great, but they are expensive.

I was going to order the Sonnet ExpressCard Thunderbolt adapter, even with its shortcomings, as it could still prove to be useful here and there. But I didn't... Actually cancelled my order shortly after placing it. Once I found out that it doesn't currently work with third-party ExpressCard adapters.

I'm also totally confused as to why it would or should even need drivers at all. Thunderbolt is a PCI-Express topology and interface. PCIe devices are supposed to be able to connect to the Thunderbolt host and operate without additional driver support (and all the ones I have worked with do just that). Exception being the BMD pro studio thing, but of course the video hardware itself would need additional drivers. In the case of the Sonnet adapter, it probably doesn't need specific Thunderbolt drivers, but Sonnet is most likely using a proprietary ExpressCard interface, rather than one that would be supported natively by OSX. Curious choice.... Makes me wonder why they would deliver something that needs extra driver development resources and supports only the legacy version of the hardware being delivered? Why do that when there are a handful of ExpressCard interfaces in production, which would require no new or additional drivers, as they are natively supported. At least one of which is ExpressCard 2.0 compliant. Once again leads me to really question what they were thinking.

I'm still convinced that they had no idea why they were developing this product, or even who they were developing it for... Even if they get the driver issues ironed out, it still won't fully support their own pro eSATA card. That's just dumb.

 

[joe hedge]

This was posted yesterday but is from the Createasphere show 7 weeks ago, mostly about Sonnet TB expansion chassis but the adapter as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0w3k_98FE

 

[Rocco Schult]

...and it works great! ...
..MacBook Pro/iMac > Thunderbolt Drive > Daisy Chained to Sonnetech Express Card Adapter w/eSATA > Red Station Redmag
..had no problems with crashing as listed above. It transfers a full 128 GB Redmag in 12 minutes. ..

Hi Peter,

which eSATA express card and which TB drive ?
Promise and Sonnet ex34 ?

2> Only one ExpressCard slot.
3> Only one Thunderbolt port (no pass-thru)

...Why only one ExpressCard slot? This could have been the bees knees, and tits as well, if they would have made a unit with 2 or 3 slots. It could have been a SxS offloading powerhouse adapter... Once again, WTF? Oh, wait, no EC2.0 support, I guess we can forget about the upcoming SxS Enhanced and Pro models working with this. Hey maybe we can all buy the upgraded model that they might choose to make 8 months from now that actually offers some of these features!
...Adding a second port on the device for pass-through or daisy-chaining is literally as simple as attaching the chipset circuitry to power and the connector. So that means it's as simple or as complicated as the device integrator wants to make it. Thunderbolt connectors are somewhat expensive at the moment as they have active electronics in them. That's why the cables are $50 and only available a couple places. This will change as production increases and more manufacturers get on-board with Thunderbolt.
...I'd pay $200 if it had the pass-thru, but I can't. The lack of the pass-thru (and lack of ExpressCard 2.0 spec) will most likely keep me from ordering.

At least, a second port would give the option to add a second of these if need arised.
A version 2 will make us happy and sonnet more business.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I, along with others, am waiting for the Magna expansion chassis (ExpressBox 3T)

I would like to put into it

a Atto H680 card for SSD download duties and easy use other esata drives (via a fan out cable)
A Red rocket
and a 10gigE card so when we are back at base I can get all the rushes from the Promise TB Drive onto my SAN (At the moment our 12tb Promise TBolt drive is a toy as I can't plug it into a worksation to download)

Is there:

1) any relaible news about the expansion chassis?
2) any big reason why the above wont work (I aprecaite that I may struggle with drivers for the 10gigE card for a bit... )?
3) Anyone else thinking the same way?

The other option is that someone brings out a dual interface drive (fingers crossed Gteck might). Thunderbolt in the field and Esata2 when I get back to base. Then I only need the RR and the H680 housed in a TB chassis

kind regards

Michael

 

[Tehben Dean]

Hey Michael, I am thinking very similar with the Magma. I want to use the ATTO r680 for my MAXX raid as well as eSATA fan cable and a Red Rocket. I was originally wanting to throw a GPU in there as we'll for Resolve but it sounds like Lion doesn't support graphics cards over TB unfortunately

 

[Tom.Wong]

I, along with others, am waiting for the Magna expansion chassis (ExpressBox 3T)

I would like to put into it

a Atto H680 card for SSD download duties and easy use other esata drives (via a fan out cable)
A Red rocket
and a 10gigE card so when we are back at base I can get all the rushes from the Promise TB Drive onto my SAN (At the moment our 12tb Promise TBolt drive is a toy as I can't plug it into a worksation to download)

Is there:

1) any relaible news about the expansion chassis?
2) any big reason why the above wont work (I aprecaite that I may struggle with drivers for the 10gigE card for a bit... )?
3) Anyone else thinking the same way?

The other option is that someone brings out a dual interface drive (fingers crossed Gteck might). Thunderbolt in the field and Esata2 when I get back to base. Then I only need the RR and the H680 housed in a TB chassis

kind regards

Michael

not sure if there are any beta testers on these boards with the expressbox, but from history that I've seen, magma products have usually been rock solid. I intend the same thing, and hopefully open up to more possibilities with a hopefully possible TB enabled mac pro in the coming months. just keep in mind that the TB port is only a 10G port in itself, the rocket alone may completely saturate out the port and not ideal. however having something like a 10gE card and the h680 might work out, they work at full bandwidth in 4x slots even though they claim they need 8x. you might have to fight with a little bit of the bandwidth depending on how fast your drives are, but much better than anything else for a imac, laptop or whatever.


I'm really hoping sonnet clears up their issue with the echo soon... it may not be as hardcore high tech as it should be as Jeff mentioned, but it can always be handy. I pre ordered my expressbox but it would be nice to have a second sxs reader, as they do pop up on set. or a very low profile low power consumption solution to add in 2 more esata ports/or fw800 ports in a jam.

 

[Rocco Schult]

I, along with others, am waiting for the Magna expansion chassis (ExpressBox 3T)


1) any relaible news about the expansion chassis?

Look HERE, was just announced, but not that the info would be that much definitive.

3) Anyone else thinking the same way?

Yes, more or less ,-)

just keep in mind that the TB port is only a 10G port in itself...

Not quite, the TB is a serialised high clocked port, pushing PCIe over copper with as low latenc as possible, not much overhead through packetizing.
Ethernet has this as a design element and frequencies are lower, making pure copper cables possible with up to 15m in length, non-active.
In the end this should allow much more practical throughput.

the rocket alone may completely saturate out the port and not ideal. however having something like a 10gE card and the h680 might work out, they work at full bandwidth in 4x slots even though they claim they need 8x.

But the saturation may be come an issue, taking into account, that e.g. myricom 10GigE card should be seated in 8x slots alone to deliver full bandwidth.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I would like to put into it

a Atto H680 card for SSD download duties and easy use other esata drives (via a fan out cable)
A Red rocket
and a 10gigE card so when we are back at base I can get all the rushes from the Promise TB Drive onto my SAN (At the moment our 12tb Promise TBolt drive is a toy as I can't plug it into a worksation to download)

Is there:

1) any relaible news about the expansion chassis?
2) any big reason why the above wont work (I aprecaite that I may struggle with drivers for the 10gigE card for a bit... )?

That's quite a bit of stuff for what amounts to a PCIe X4 connection... Actually X2 if we start looking at how Thunderbolt handles bandwidth. Thunderbolt has two 10Gbps channels per port. However, each device (the Magma box itself is considered the device) is only allowed to operate on a single channel, per the spec -- as far as I'm aware. Originally it seemed as if devices could use both channels, but I've had a couple manufacturers tell me otherwise. 10Gbps is essentially the same bandwidth as two PCIe 2.0 lanes. So, the ATTO H680 card will only be able to run at half its maximum speed. Same with the Rocket, assuming there's an X8 or X16 compliant slot available to plug it into that can properly link all of its lanes to the PCIe host within the expander box and then you'll be alright. But it won't run at full speed...

The 10GE card could basically run at full speed, saturating the one Thunderbolt channel. Although, unless you need it right away, you may want to hold off on that. There are a couple Thunderbolt to 10G Ethernet adapters in the works right now and we'll probably see them in the next 3 to 5 months -- as PC's with Thunderbolt ports start hitting the market.

Secondary Thunderbolt connectors or pass-thru ports on devices are a big deal. Peripheral makers don't seem to be getting this at the moment. However I think they will as more devices appear on the market and they realize that if their device makes it difficult for users to attach multiple devices, people won't buy it.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Thanks for the thoughts and info guys...

I wasn't originally too worried about saturating the TB channel unless there is stability questions attached to saturating spikes. Admittedly that was when I thought the expanson box had both channels and was the equivalent to a 8x or 4x PCI 2.0 buss... I always have to remind myself not to get too hopefull with new technology ;-(

Re bandwidth: Light weight DIT kit

Use the H680 to attach to 2xSSD readers by esata and download Epic media.. On stereo jobs I would attach 4 so that would be a bigger challenge

The redrocket is there to view the occasional shot AND 'if' there is time process files for editorial. I've always assumed that the Redrocket's bandwith hit is - the media read (approx 50 MB/s) + passing 1920x1080 uncompressed frames back to the CPU for a encoding and wrapping. I realise that you can make it do more than this (from a bandwith pov) but this is all I need.

I figure the write backs to disc will be small... Dnx185x at worst and often Dnx36 or 120 for ofline

THEN the 10gig is for when back at base. There is nothing else being used in the TB bus apart from the TB drive AND the 10gigE. I am just trying to get it all onto a SAN. If Apple don't abandon the MacPro and we see a box soon then I can ditch the 10gigE as I wll be able to attach the TB drive to the Macpro instead.

Although, unless you need it right away, you may want to hold off on that. There are a couple Thunderbolt to 10G Ethernet adapters in the works right now and we'll probably see them in the next 3 to 5 months -- as PC's with Thunderbolt ports start hitting the market.

I hope so as I just noticed Myricom is not on the Magma partner list (people working on compatible mac drivers). Small tree is.. anyone use thier cards?

I'm also hoping the whole 10gigE thing becomes much more mainstream...?

reagrds

Michael

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Well all I am/was trying to do is turn my 15" MB PRO into a 17" in that it will have Expresscard34 adapters for running esata to TB... and this piece of junk just doesn't work with Lion.

 

[joe hedge]

Well all I am/was trying to do is turn my 15" MB PRO into a 17" in that it will have Expresscard34 adapters for running esata to TB... and this piece of junk just doesn't work with Lion.

I'm on 10.7.2 and it works on mine...I posted the links for the updated drivers a few pages back...also I don't think you can hot-swap