Son of "Red Bull" - "Red Facts"

[Joe G.]

log

log

Stu,

In the interview you were very emphatic that Panavision had considerably better lattitude and performance than the Red.

"What RED needs is a color space designed and tested for filmout, with meaningful exposure guidelines that leave a ton of room for highlights without giving you muck at exposure. RED Log would work fine for this, we just need the latitude and the documentation."

So, are you saying that RedLog captures the super whites that logarithmic color spaces allow? How is this possible if the Redcode RAW is linear, and not logarithmic, in the first place?

Converting to a log space after being captured in linear space seems like there is a loss somewhere.

Question: Is the Panavision "14 bit" capture a logarithmic 14 bits, or a linear 14 bits?

According to this article, even 16 bits of linear TIF space is inferior to 10 bit Cineon log.

Can you expand on this?

 

[number6]

Wonder if the Rian guy who wrote the original article qualifies as "....to anyone with a bad attitude."

Oh well, he can always rent.

 

[Stu Maschwitz]

Stu,

In the interview you were very emphatic that Panavision had considerably better lattitude and performance than the Red.

"What RED needs is a color space designed and tested for filmout, with meaningful exposure guidelines that leave a ton of room for highlights without giving you muck at exposure. RED Log would work fine for this, we just need the latitude and the documentation."

So, are you saying that RedLog captures the super whites that logarithmic color spaces allow? How is this possible if the Redcode RAW is linear, and not logarithmic, in the first place?

Converting to a log space after being captured in linear space seems like there is a loss somewhere.

Question: Is the Panavision "14 bit" capture a logarithmic 14 bits, or a linear 14 bits?

According to this article, even 16 bits of linear TIF space is inferior to 10 bit Cineon log.

Can you expand on this?

Logarithmic color space does not inherently allow any more or less overbrights than any other color space. Log is just an efficient way of storing an image in a given bit-depth. In that sense RED Log and Panalog are very similar.

The dynamic range of the Genesis comes from the fact that you can underexpose enough to hold five stops over 18% gray and still have acceptable noise levels at exposure and below. So when I credit Panalog for the Genesis's performance, I'm including and emphasizing the exposure guidelines. And these guidelines are viable because of the sensor's light sensitivity and low noise.

Linear is where all images begin, but it's a very inefficient way to store them. Log is "perceptual encoding," meaning that the bits are distributed with equal weight per a human observer's sensitivity.

Genesis is 14-bit linear at the sensor. Panalog was designed to lose as little as possible in translating that to 10-bit.

-Stu

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Great podCast guys (as usual)!

I disagree with the notion, on the podcast, that Red doesn't need 4k resolution (or 3.2k) because tv and film outs only need 2k-ish. I have a client that finishes in 1080p that often blows up/zooms in on the 4k image. We shoot a lot of skin care stuff. When the skin looks great post will get in even closer to show off the pores... Red is great for being able to blow-up

Additionally, Having extra pixels lets us blowup an image for motion stabilization in post if needed. If you start with 1920x1080 and finnish with 1920x1080 something has to give to stabilize.

There are so many people excited about Red that having a few on the other side is expected. It would be nice if the arguments were more objective like an actual shoot-out or testing.

Cheers,
Rich

 

[Martijn Lembeck]

Alot of what he mentions in his article about photosites, bits, color depth and perceptual sharpness is probably right. It sounds a bit like rocket science and it is sort-of, and I'll bet 90% of all people in the industry have no freakin' idea what it all means ( but they all say they do obviously ).
But if you have actually tried to read the article, you know that he's not saying Red is a bad camera. He's actually saying Red should be proud of what they have acchieved... so why all this Rian Johnson bashing??

I think he is one of the few who actually understands what all that stuff really means for ging to cinema, so it's really easy for Redusers to joke about it and ignore what they don't want to hear....

Hey...I'm a big Red fan myself, love the look and DOF (and can't afford a F35 or Genesis anyway) but not ignoring what might be the truth.....

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Reading all that "facts" about RED camera written at http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html

I found out that Rian Johnson looks the same as a guy who was at the filmmakers's gang

avatar just before (he or...) the filmmakers's gang changed it and took my photo instead of that or his :w00t:.

Rian Johnson.


I don't say that Rian Johnson is hiding here at the forum as a filmmakers's gang but that's

what I discovered about the famous avatar's "joke" in my "detective's investigation" :detective2: .

The Internet server experts could find it very fast.

Also could be that is all my faulty imagination and please correct me if I'm wrong .

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

BTW, about the RED resolution, color depths, etc...RED facts I would like to ask Rian Johnson (a.k.a. filmmak...)

to show us here at the forum the pictures from F23 and Genesis to compare it with the RED pictures below.

Those pictures are fast and dirty shots from my balcony at this very grey and rainy day in Vienna (Friday, October 3, 2008).

Shot on RED using Leica Summilux-M 90 mm F2 lens on IMS for RED @f/5.6, processed in RA, ASA 500,
Color Space: Camera RGB, OUTput LUT/Gamma: REDlog, then processed in Shake using Filmlight's plug in
Truelight as it's showed at the picture 4 below.

Shot on RED using Leica Summilux-M 90 mm F2 lens on IMS for RED @f/5.6, processed in RA, ASA 500,
Color Space: Camera RGB, OUTput LUT/Gamma: REDlog, then processed in Shake using Filmlight's plug in
Truelight as it's showed at the picture 4 below.

Shot on RED using Leica Summilux-M 90 mm F2 lens on IMS for RED @f/5.6, processed in RA, ASA 500,
Color Space: Camera RGB, OUTput LUT/Gamma: REDlog, then processed in Shake using Filmlight's plug in
Truelight as it's showed at the picture 4 below.

Filmlight's Truelight settings in Shake 4.1.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

18% Grey

18% Grey

I have also heard a lot of discussion about the Genesis having user information about using an 18% Grey card and being able to get 5 stops over that. Correct me if I am wrong here but you could easily expose a grey card with the RED, in such a way, to give you 5 stops over.

To me it sounds like the Genesis's methodology with the 18% grey card is an exposure tool , which is great! I applaud that. But Red has many exposure tools including the Luma & RGB histograms, stoplights, False color, spot meter, 2 zebras and the new RAW exposure meter in build 17.

Cheers,
Rich

 

[Simon Smith]

Reading all that "facts" about RED camera written at http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html

I found out that Rian Johnson looks the same as a guy who was at the filmmakers's gang

avatar just before (he or...) the filmmakers's gang changed it and took my photo instead of that or his :w00t:.

Rian Johnson.


I don't say that Rian Johnson is hiding here at the forum as a filmmakers's gang but that's

what I discovered about the famous avatar's "joke" in my "detective's investigation" :detective2: .

The Internet server experts could find it very fast.

Also could be that is all my faulty imagination and please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Gordon Prince]

:devil:

Is Sanjin's IMS mounted camera losing the Red warranty? :biggrin:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

He...he...he... I'm bringing here to some people a lot of "food" or even "FUD" .

Also right now "Congress OKs historic bailout bill; Bush signs it" and save all of us from dropping out of ambits .