Something New....

[Tim Whitcomb]

This SSD situation kind of sucks.

This SSD situation means I'll probably have to give up on Red products.

With comments like these, probably a good idea that you do give up.:nopity:

next time take the time to research the subject, (its been discussed in depth on this thread) as to WHY the RED media costs are what they are.

and a 64GB SSD card is CHEAPER and BETTER than the cost of 4 current 16GB CF cards.

NOT ONE SINGLE 3rd PARTY media developer has been able to create a solution that meets their stringent standards... OR RED would gladly incorporate it. (They have said this many times)

SO please explain to me/us how a company that is OBSESSED with bringing you(us) the BEST quality digital cinema products at the BEST price have suddenly lost their minds and trying to gouge customers over media?

FYI: with ALL SSD drives ... performance is directly related to the QUALITY of the silicon... which is why prices vary... just like memory and all silicon based media. High quality = higher cost.

And when you price this media versus reshoots... there is NO comparison.

Good luck with your alternative solution, RED is not for everyone. Agreed.

 

[Mark B.]

With comments like these, probably a good idea that you do give up.:nopity:

next time take the time to research the subject, (its been discussed in depth on this thread) as to WHY the RED media costs are what they are.

and a 64GB SSD card is CHEAPER and BETTER than the cost of 4 current 16GB CF cards.

NOT ONE SINGLE 3rd PARTY media developer has been able to create a solution that meets their stringent standards... OR RED would gladly incorporate it. (They have said this many times)

SO please explain to me/us how a company that is OBSESSED with bringing you(us) the BEST quality digital cinema products at the BEST price have suddenly lost their minds and trying to gouge customers over media?

FYI: with ALL SSD drives ... performance is directly related to the QUALITY of the silicon... which is why prices vary... just like memory and all silicon based media. High quality = higher cost.

And when you price this media versus reshoots... there is NO comparison.

Good luck with your alternative solution, RED is not for everyone. Agreed.

1) I read the entire thread (twice) before posting. What I've seen so far in the thread have been more along the lines of hypothetical musings than explanations.

2) 64GB SSD might be cheaper than a Red CF card, but a Red drive trumps them both (on cost per GB).

3) Red's stringent standards have historically been in contention with CF limitations, not SSD limitations. 3rd party SSD drives exist that can meet the read/write performance needed by a Red camera. If the drives don't meet standards, then a large intermediate cache along with a RAID configuration will solve most of those problems.

4) I never said that Red is trying to gouge customers (although I am sort of thinking that at this point). Red might be working to bring affordable products to us, but Red has a small group of people to sell to, so they are going to tend to ask for higher prices to recoup their costs. The computer industry, where generic SSD drives are bought and sold, has so much competition and so many buyers that prices have been driven much lower. And something else to consider when comparing Red to the general computer industry... Red rarely lowers their prices, while the computer industry seems to lower prices every month.

5) I could make an SSD drive that sucks, and charge a billion dollars for it. Probably nobody would buy it, because it wouldn't perform as expected (it would likely be made of cardboard and super-glue). Most companies make good-quality products in order to stay in business, and then what drives their prices down is the competition with other manufacturers. Red, by aiming for a monopoly on their storage options, is placing themselves in a position where they have no competition and can charge huge amounts of money for their storage products. Maybe they'll ignore their monopoly and simply price things as low as possible, just barely meeting their manufacturing costs. I kind of doubt it though, it's too great a temptation for most companies. So, as consumers, we'd be better off with more competition on the supply side of things.

6) Obviously SSD is going to be more reliable than magnetic discs, but for people on a budget the magnetic drives provide a lot of space for the money. If we could get 3rd party SSD drives into the Red storage universe, then the magnetic drives would lose their cost-effective luster and we'd see just about everyone buy SSD.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Just curious

Just curious

This SSD situation kind of sucks. Red's proprietary media is going to be more expensive than off-the-shelf drives, and harder to find in an emergency.

Also bugging me is the issue of lengthy recordings. Two weeks from now my brother's band is going to perform a two-hour live concert. I'm going to capture the entire concert onto a single Red drive without any breaks in the recording, so as not to miss anything. That sort of recording is not possible with the proposed SSD drives, because they simply don't have the storage capacity to run continuously for a long event. Juggling multiple cameras to maintain constant coverage is a hassle, and drives up costs.

This SSD situation means I'll probably have to give up on Red products. The only thing that would keep me interested is if a 3rd party (or Red) produces what we all want, which is a module that allows generic SATA drives to be used with the camera. The SATA drives would be attached to trays (essentially a one-time operation), and the trays would then slide into the drive module. By using the trays, the contact pin issue becomes non-existent, and a quick insertion/ejection system can be utilized. The trays could be designed to hold multiple SATA drives simultaneously, so that the drives can run in a RAID configuration. The module itself could analyze the drives and determine if they can perform up to expectations. If not, they would be rejected by the system. When better cheaper drives come out in the future, the old drives can be replaced simply by removing them from the trays. The trays and the module continue to get used with the new drives, while the old drives can then be used like normal SATA drives (probably as external backup drives). The system is efficient and logical, unlike Red's currently proposed system.

You're capturing a live concert with a RED Drive??? Have you shot a concert before using RED Drive?? Is it a loud concert?? Do some tests with your drive...best to you...

Can't wait for Solid state media....

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

1) 3rd party SSD drives exist that can meet the read/write performance needed by a Red camera.

Really? Name one that handles all the new REDCODE and DATA rates advertised by EPIC. SSD are made from silicon wafers... they are grown and GRADED A, B, C etc... raw costs are directly related to quality. like memory.

4) I never said that Red is trying to gouge customers (although I am sort of thinking that at this point).

you implied it first and now just confirmed, that. I again suggest you stop bitching about them in their living room.

1)5) I could make an SSD drive that sucks, and charge a billion dollars for it. Probably nobody would buy it, because it wouldn't perform as expected (it would likely be made of cardboard and super-glue).

Stupid argument, and your point is?

1)Most companies make good-quality products in order to stay in business, and then what drives their prices down is the competition with other manufacturers. Red, by aiming for a monopoly on their storage options, is placing themselves in a position where they have no competition and can charge huge amounts of money for their storage products. Maybe they'll ignore their monopoly and simply price things as low as possible, just barely meeting their manufacturing costs. I kind of doubt it though, it's too great a temptation for most companies. So, as consumers, we'd be better off with more competition on the supply side of things.

Another bold and actually pretty obnoxious assumption Mark B.

1. RED is clearly not like MOST companies. As proven here as they open their doors for feedback... (but posts like yours are why they have chosen NOT to answer more specific questions) so thanks!

2. They have not done this with CF Cards, why would they adopt that strategy for SSD now? Greed? really? I think not.
3. This is a business, not a charity, have you priced Canon and Nikon accessories, a lot of them are silly expensive. And they dont record RAW motion at 2.5 to 1 wavelet compression to off the shelf CF cards.
4. RED has historically passed on savings, so its presumptious to assume they will adopt this "screw our users" strategy now, especially as they are expanding their base with Scarlet. That's just Fools logic.
5. Think you are 100% misguided here. This is NOT a case of APPLE gouging for memory when 3rd party is cheaper, Jared has confirmed that they have stringent requirements...and none have met the rates that they need.
REMEMBER, RED is developing NEW REDCODE RATES and offering 5K at 120 FPS and being SMART by being AHEAD OF THE CURVE and abandoning CF for SSD...

6. as for RED DRIVE. Ive had more failures with spinning media that have cost me far more than any media... ever will. Penny wise and Pound foolish.

6) Obviously SSD is going to be more reliable than magnetic discs, but for people on a budget the magnetic drives provide a lot of space for the money. If we could get 3rd party SSD drives into the Red storage universe, then the magnetic drives would lose their cost-effective luster and we'd see just about everyone buy SSD.[/QUOTE]

You speak for the minority of EPIC users, not the majority... if $ is such an issue, ( we are talking only HUNDREDS of dollars here) then perhaps you need t

1. Revisit your business model?
2. RENT?
or as you suggested
3. ... abandon RED altogether, something tells me they won't miss you

 

[Jordi Figueras]

1) I read the entire thread (twice) before posting. What I've seen so far in the thread have been more along the lines of hypothetical musings than explanations.

2) 64GB SSD might be cheaper than a Red CF card, but a Red drive trumps them both (on cost per GB).

3) Red's stringent standards have historically been in contention with CF limitations, not SSD limitations. 3rd party SSD drives exist that can meet the read/write performance needed by a Red camera. If the drives don't meet standards, then a large intermediate cache along with a RAID configuration will solve most of those problems.

4) I never said that Red is trying to gouge customers (although I am sort of thinking that at this point). Red might be working to bring affordable products to us, but Red has a small group of people to sell to, so they are going to tend to ask for higher prices to recoup their costs. The computer industry, where generic SSD drives are bought and sold, has so much competition and so many buyers that prices have been driven much lower. And something else to consider when comparing Red to the general computer industry... Red rarely lowers their prices, while the computer industry seems to lower prices every month.

5) I could make an SSD drive that sucks, and charge a billion dollars for it. Probably nobody would buy it, because it wouldn't perform as expected (it would likely be made of cardboard and super-glue). Most companies make good-quality products in order to stay in business, and then what drives their prices down is the competition with other manufacturers. Red, by aiming for a monopoly on their storage options, is placing themselves in a position where they have no competition and can charge huge amounts of money for their storage products. Maybe they'll ignore their monopoly and simply price things as low as possible, just barely meeting their manufacturing costs. I kind of doubt it though, it's too great a temptation for most companies. So, as consumers, we'd be better off with more competition on the supply side of things.

6) Obviously SSD is going to be more reliable than magnetic discs, but for people on a budget the magnetic drives provide a lot of space for the money. If we could get 3rd party SSD drives into the Red storage universe, then the magnetic drives would lose their cost-effective luster and we'd see just about everyone buy SSD.

I understand RED's policy behind the propietary SSD. They've made it clear for everyone a lot of times. I think they are right in their statements (people saying RED cameras are unreliable 'cause they used cheap off the shelves CF cards) and I agree (in part) with what they are doing. I wouldn't trust any other media to get my images that wasn't branded RED. For me that's simple: they built the camera, they are the ones who know it best.

However, I understand Mark's feeling. It comes a little bit from the contradiction in all the modular philosophy: "all about the options" (it's been said a lot lately in these forums). But now it seems that the only media option in the RED world is going through the SSD path or by using old RED DRIVES (which, in time, will fail and there are not going to be replacements for them) or slow limited CF cards.

I'm sure that SSD is a far more better option... but I kinda fell in love with my RED DRIVE (which didn't reported a dropped frame never, even having gone through hard handheld camera, inside fast moving cars and concerts), and I'd like to be able to buy a couple more. I mean, that would be a nice OPTION for our REDs (ONE, EPIC or SCARLET), wouldn't that be?

Sorry, don't want to be polemic, just trying to understand everyone's point of view (and been worried for the lack of media options at the moment).

Cheers everyone!

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Don´t loose faith because RED gives people the opportunity to upgarde to the SSD module. When people upgrade they will want to sell their 16 Gb CF cards (fairly) cheap to you and maybe me, (I haven´t really decided yet).

And what do you loose, you can keep on going with what you already have, add a few cheap 16Gb cards from the people who are upgrading, everyone will be happy!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Don´t loose faith because RED gives people the opportunity to upgarde to the SSD module. When people upgrade they will want to sell their 16 Gb CF cards (fairly) cheap to you and maybe me, (I haven´t really decided yet).

And what do you loose, you can keep on going with what you already have, add a few cheap 16Gb cards from the people who are upgrading, everyone will be happy!

Amen, but something tells me Mark B is more into bitching and slamming RED than exploring ways to make it work... unfortunate, but getting more and more common on here.

 

[Elsie N]

This SSD situation means I'll probably have to give up on Red products. The only thing that would keep me interested is if a 3rd party (or Red) produces what we all want, which is a module that allows generic SATA drives to be used with the camera. The SATA drives would be attached to trays (essentially a one-time operation), and the trays would then slide into the drive module. By using the trays, the contact pin issue becomes non-existent, and a quick insertion/ejection system can be utilized. The trays could be designed to hold multiple SATA drives simultaneously, so that the drives can run in a RAID configuration. The module itself could analyze the drives and determine if they can perform up to expectations. If not, they would be rejected by the system. When better cheaper drives come out in the future, the old drives can be replaced simply by removing them from the trays. The trays and the module continue to get used with the new drives, while the old drives can then be used like normal SATA drives (probably as external backup drives). The system is efficient and logical, unlike Red's currently proposed system.

Maybe you could special order this system. RED might take a few people off their current tasks and hand make one for you. Probably be cheaper to just buy a gross of the SSDs though.

O.K., I'm being a little facetious in making my point that RED cannot accommodate each of our wants and desires individually. I mean, it's not like Jim is our own personal billionaire, although he sometimes seems that way.

Sometimes you just gotta go with the Royal Flush that's dealt ya'.

 

[Jordi Figueras]

Don´t loose faith because RED gives people the opportunity to upgarde to the SSD module. When people upgrade they will want to sell their 16 Gb CF cards (fairly) cheap to you and maybe me, (I haven´t really decided yet).

And what do you loose, you can keep on going with what you already have, add a few cheap 16Gb cards from the people who are upgrading, everyone will be happy!

Nice to see someone gives Mark a constructive approach, not just criticism.
:thumbsup:

 

[Brian Petrie]

It's ridiculous to think Red is trying to "gouge" the customer because of only offering SSD/CF. First off, even if they were trying to make a little money back off of media sales, so be it. The price/performance ratio is so ridiculously unbalanced in our favor compared to other manufacturers that they can't give away everything.

However, I don't think that's what they are doing. They are simply ensuring that there cameras only have the highest reputation by offering only the highest quality recording media. It's not worth it to risk being associated with poor storage options just to offer a cheaper solution. If they were to offer a module that allows us to put our own media in it that would only cause problems. Everyone may say they'd put high quality media into them, but be realistic, someone would undoubtably try to cut cost or claim to have been in a "bind" and use poor quality media. Then people would be on their soap box blaming Red or saying they wernt informed enough. Ultimately, hurting Red's image for something that was out of their control. Sorta like the Red Drive/ Firewire issue.
Not to mention, I would guess that some other option will arise with time, especially once Scarlet is released. Anyways, sorry for the rant I am just so sick of people complaining about this. I mean we are talking about a professional cinema camera that happens to be priced extremely reasonably, especially when compared to other offerings like the F23/35/900 or even the Alexa. So come on give them a break and lets move on.:rant:

 

[Elsie N]

Nice to see someone gives Mark a constructive approach, not just criticism.
:thumbsup:

Jordi, I totally agree with you except for the caveat that sometimes criticism itself is constructive. Everyone getting a trophy is nice, but it doesn't allow others to identify the winners and losers.

 

[Jordi Figueras]

Jordi, I totally agree with you except for the caveat that sometimes criticism itself is constructive. Everyone getting a trophy is nice, but it doesn't allow others to identify the winners and losers.

You're absolutely right. Just wanted to stand out the most useful post in the last page of this thread, imho.

As someone said: please, move on. Let's share some knowledge, opinion, etc. about this SSD stuff.

 

[Deanan]

Two weeks from now my brother's band is going to perform a two-hour live concert. I'm going to capture the entire concert onto a single Red drive without any breaks in the recording, so as not to miss anything. That sort of recording is not possible with the proposed SSD drives, because they simply don't have the storage capacity to run continuously for a long event.

A 256GB SSD can do ~2.5 hours on a Red One.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

A 256GB SSD can do ~2.5 hours on a Red One.

Unfortunately at well over 3 times the price and still less amount of GB, not even half. I think that may be the point.

While i agree the SSD change is a fantastic route and the best way forward for DSMC there will be a very large portion of people who will be surely hurt by the changes with their R1's. A well priced, very long storage medium such as the drives despite any downsides is a great thing for a lot of people. I still firmly believe that they should be kept as options for media. While i will be going a full SSD changeover there will be many hundreds if not thousands that will not be able to afford this. Keeping a legacy of old recording media like the drives may not be an ideal scenario for RED but it is worthwhile keeping a lot of people happy by having the choice. And from my understanding the R1 will not be able to take advantage of the best of what SSD offers anyway, the rest of the hardware is too slow. They may not sell many drives once SSD is up and running but as RED have said all along...giving customers options is very high on their priority. Why change now...

 

[Jon B.]

I can't wait for the SSD and to take off that bulky drive mounted on top of the camera. Cost is relative, so the argument that it's too expensive holds no water.

Anyone see that post a few days ago where the guy said he wanted an entire camera package for $25K; batteries, lcd, evf etc? Why does Red have to please every user who has the opinion that it costs too much for them? I'm fine with the prices. I don't want a Red drive. I want SSD plugged into the side of the camera, no more bulk and cables.

The secret to failure is trying to please everyone.

 

[Jon B.]

It's an evolving camera system...

 

[Jordi Figueras]

A 256GB SSD can do ~2.5 hours on a Red One.

Really nice! In such a small package. All I see are advantages: less weight (and certainly, everything that reduces the weight in the R1 is worth paying for), faster downloads than a RED DRIVE (through the RED Station), almost the same capacity as my old RED DRIVE and a lower camera profile ('cause the cradle is no longer needed).

The only downside is the required investment for changing the media (which is huge for some of us). Surely I'll go the SSD way when I can afford to.

Anyway. Is there a release schedule for all this? (The R1 side module and the SSD media itself?) I couldn't find it anywhere in the thread.

 

[David Rasberry]

Really nice! In such a small package. All I see are advantages: less weight (and certainly, everything that reduces the weight in the R1 is worth paying for), faster downloads than a RED DRIVE (through the RED Station), almost the same capacity as my old RED DRIVE and a lower camera profile ('cause the cradle is no longer needed).

The only downside is the required investment for changing the media (which is huge for some of us). Surely I'll go the SSD way when I can afford to.

Anyway. Is there a release schedule for all this? (The R1 side module and the SSD media itself?) I couldn't find it anywhere in the thread.

I think Jarred said they are hoping to ship in October.

 

[Jordi Figueras]

I think Jarred said they are hoping to ship in October.

Thanks David! Hope to get a comfirmation soon.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

I can't wait for the SSD and to take off that bulky drive mounted on top of the camera. Cost is relative, so the argument that it's too expensive holds no water.

As i said, i think the SSD's are a great thing and having it useable between both camera systems is ideal and i will be upgrading...no two ways about it. But saying that the cost side of the argument doesn't hold water is off the mark, for a lot of people. If this was an optional upgrade for the R1 then i imagine this would be fine for most...but it really isn't if they want to be using their R1 for years to come. They have discontinued the drive recording media, not just added another option. SSD's are far superior in every way and far better ergonomically for sure and a big improvement over the current situation of slow, expensive short lasting CF cards. I still believe there would be no problems if the drives were still available if that was what you wanted but they are not...they are gone. RED said they were all about options and these are a good option for a lot of people and it's easy to read the posts were it is going to hurt people not having them from cost to long-form recordings. For some people the $1500 module is one thing, but $1.41 per gb of storage compared to $12.50 is another...but if it was optional that's different but it aint.

But in saying all this there will always be people that know better, can do better and will complain about everything...all from their kitchen table on the laptop