Some new footage to play with

[Emanuel A.]

Congrats Häak! Actually, I'd like to follow up but I am on the road. Is there anyone who may post some grabs?

Thanks!

E.

 

[jbeale]

Congrats Is there anyone who may post some grabs?

Here is a 2k still grab from the H.264 file. There is fine-grained noise in the darker OOF background (probably amplified by H264 compression) but really none that I can see in the foreground on the boy's face, which is clear and natural looking beyond anything I'd expect from film. I'd think that the background noise could be removed with something like Neat Video, if desired.

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/Haakon-2k-a.jpg

 

[A. Bastaki]

drooling at the first scene...
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[Häakon]

I think I remember you once commenting about 2K not being up to 4K in terms of quality - which of course we would expect if we're trying to cut between them. But I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about 2K vs. the HDX footage or even vs. footage from a Sony F900.

That's an interesting question and something I didn't/haven't tested, so I don't have a definitive answer for you yet. Most people use the 2K because there's no other way to overcrank - but that's windowed 2K, not scaled. It is my feeling that the scaled image will look far superior to the windowed (and allow us to keep the 35mm qualities of the sensor we enjoy so much!), so I have been doing very little 2K windowed work. I would be more than happy to roll a little 2K/24p for you however to see quality differences - I just would have to get the HDX back to do a direct comparison as it's not my camera and not currently in my possession. That being said, even a simple 2K windowed vs. 4K RED test would be good to see how the footage holds up. Surprisingly, I don't think anyone has done that yet.

wow, how'd you get that little guy to cry like that? not bad for "the kid down the street." props to your actors for a fantastic impromptu job...

Ah, the magic of a squirt bottle. :tongue: The rain outside is fake, too - I just had someone outside spraying the window pane as we shot. It's subtle and no one probably even noticed it, but it adds a lot to the scene for me and there are some very faint reflections of the rain dripping down the wall behind him that I really like. They're just small details I wanted to include to make the shot feel more real, more forlorn, and more personal.

I suppose I shouldn't be ruining the "grand experience" for everyone, but then again I kinda feel like it's good to get some insight and learn too. And hell, even Hitchcock used chocolate syrup in his bloody scenes... whatever works, right? I kinda feel like the filmmakers who never reveal anything about the way they shoot as if they have some secret formula that they have to protect don't do a service to anyone. If you have skill and ability, you will always be wanting to push yourself further to come up with great material regardless of how much of your technique you share. After all, we all learn from and are influenced by others regardless of who we are or how long we've been doing this, so it's just a part of the process for me. Don't feel hesitant to ask about anything - either on the technical side or the creative side - and I'll do my best to answer. If I don't have the answer, I will do my best to get it for you.

Any chance of uploding some sample R3D files? Im sure Im not alone in wanting to play with anything raw from this shoot to grade properly. Go on, break the mold and give the people what they really want!

I honestly don't have a problem with this, other than the fact that the R3D files are quite large and completely uncut - which means unnecessary (and crappy) footage will come along for the ride. I think there are some shorter takes that I might be able to use, though... I'll see what I can get for you.

Congrats Häak! Actually, I'd like to follow up but I am on the road. Is there anyone who may post some grabs?

Give me a little bit and I will post some 4K tiffs and jpgs for everyone to use. My big problem right now is that when I color-correct something in REDAlert! it looks completely different when I take the footage into another program like Final Cut. Even the remade quicktime reference files look totally different in the standard Quicktime player than they do in the REDAlert! application. Unfortunately, since REDAlert! is the only way I can get a 4K still from the R3D files (REDCINE refuses to work on my computers), there is a conflict. I will keep working at it though and get you something as soon as I can!

Thanks again to everyone who has had very nice things to say about the footage... I really appreciate it. I would be happy to keep sharing even if you didn't like my work, but this definitely makes the process more fun and enjoyable. :turned:

 

[pc2099]

Haakon,

Point taken about the R3D files but still for me im happy to download 4gig even if only a fraction of it is usable. But thats just me and end of the day Id be more than happy with anything 'R3D' you manage to make available.

On that note its one of the things Im still trying to get my head around in terms of workflow. So say you have a series of continuous takes which ends up being all in 1 4+ gig 2k R3D file. Is there no way to 'cut down; the R3D file to get the take you want and still keep it in Red Raw format?

Doesn’t FCP allow editing of native R3D files?

 

[Häakon]

Haakon,

Point taken about the R3D files but still for me im happy to download 4gig even if only a fraction of it is usable. But thats just me and end of the day Id be more than happy with anything 'R3D' you manage to make available.

Oh, I know you wouldn't mind unusable footage... I just don't want to be spreading crappy footage around the internet with my name on it. :tongue: But I am sure that I can find something for you; of greater challenge is the web space because I know my server doesn't have multiple gigs free on it. If someone wants to provide a place I can upload an .R3D file for use, I'd be more than happy to do so.

On that note its one of the things Im still trying to get my head around in terms of workflow. So say you have a series of continuous takes which ends up being all in 1 4+ gig 2k R3D file. Is there no way to 'cut down; the R3D file to get the take you want and still keep it in Red Raw format?

Doesn’t FCP allow editing of native R3D files?

Every time you hit 'start' and 'stop' on the camera, it creates a new .R3D file. So in theory, you shouldn't have multiple takes in one file unless you didn't stop rolling in between. Also, it should be noted that .R3D files conform to FAT32 standards, so no clip will be longer than 2GB. If a take (clip) runs longer than 2GB, a new .R3D file will be created and the footage spans the multiple clips (this is similar to how P2 works).

I'm not sure of a way to split .R3D files natively without recompressing, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Currently, FCP6 can read but not write REDCODE, so you can drag a clip into the timeline without the need to render, but you can't make cuts, fades, or the like without recompression/rendering to a different format/codec. It's possible Scratch may have the ability to do this, but I'm not aware of the procedure at this time.

There is some benefit to this, however, as you're never damaging your original "negative," and there is a lot to be said for keeping your pristine original intact. I'm not sure I would want to start messing with .R3D files in that manner.

 

[ChrisLyon]

of greater challenge is the web space because I know my server doesn't have multiple gigs free on it. If someone wants to provide a place I can upload an .R3D file for use, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Ahem... Look in the signature.

I can give you a username and password and you can upload straight to my server.

 

[planet e]

Ah, the magic of a squirt bottle. :tongue:

hey, i'll take all the tips and secrets i can. i don't shoot features, mostly nature and outdoors (bear and fox will probably not appreciate the squirt bottle... )...also some commercial and event (triathlon bikers a little more appreciative of water bottles than bears....)

maybe the feature bug will bite now that the tools are near my grasp. dunno about all those people, though, that might just ruin it for me...but feel free to keep pulling back the curtain, always appreciated!

more footy, if you have time, please and thank you.

 

[A. Bastaki]

Red can be very grainy.
1. The second scene has a lot of dirty filthy grain... thats unusable to me.
2. The first scene... at asa 500.. it feels grainless... astounding... i only noticed some on the ladies' neck.. in the shadows.. but still very filmic.

It's weird.
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[Häakon]

Red can be very grainy.
1. The second scene has a lot of dirty filthy grain... thats unusable to me.
2. The first scene... at asa 500.. it feels grainless... astounding... i only noticed some on the ladies' neck.. in the shadows.. but still very filmic.

It's weird.

Hi Akube,

Just out of curiosity, did you follow the tips I outlined in this post? If you don't have Final Cut Studio installed on your system at all or if you haven't checked the appropriate boxes in your Quicktime player preferences, the gamma on the H264 clips will not be correct, and this will greatly affect the visibility of noise in the picture. Also, it's odd because both clips were shot at ASA500, neither was color corrected in any way in post, and both had sufficient exposure so they should exhibit similar amounts of noise. I am not saying that RED is noise free - it's not - but the noise which is there is very fine (small) and pretty unobtrusive. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't feel the second scene is "unusable."

 

[Häakon]

By popular demand, here is a 4K tiff, a 1080 jpg, and a 720 jpg.

Besides providing smaller downloads and easier viewing, the smaller jpgs also help to illustrate the point I've been trying to make about the power of oversampling. Keep in mind the jpgs are both HD resolution - and they look far better than any competing camera I've seen...

 

[pc2099]

Hi Haakon,

Sorry to say that I too see the 2k file to be very noisy which Im sure has to do with QuickTime on my PC and possibly the H264 codec as well.

I did set QuickTime to use best quality but still it looks bad and obviously I can’t install FCP. This is where Id really love to get some raw footage - even 4 seconds of the bedroom scene so I can see it without the QuickTime failings and compression degradation.

Did you have any luck taking Chris up on his offer to host some R3D stuff?

PS Tryign to play the 2k file with VLC on my laptop appears to make it way better noise wise however it stutters so badly I cant be entirly sure. Stupid QT!

 

[Häakon]

I think you need to have FCS2 installed in order to select the "Final Cut Studio Color Compatibility" option, which is just a fancy way of saying "fix my gamma, please." Without it, noise is dramatically increased.

How does the 1080 jpg look to you (it's similar in size to the 2K clip)?

I will get at least one R3D file uploaded soon; I am just going to be rather busy over the next couple of days. Hang in there!

 

[pc2099]

The 1080 looks near flawless, so Im sure its just a QT issue. No wories on the R3D, more than happy to wait.

Thanks for all your efforts.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

...on the perception of noise in general... I wonder if the FCP plugin is doing the same thing that RED ALERT! is doing in regards to the proxies at 2K... where 2K at render time is not a super high quality downsample from 4K, just a quick half-rez extraction. I remember very early RED QT 2K footage had the illusion of more noise that was actually there because of this. A smoother image came from the actual downsample from 4K when making image sequences vrs making QTs.

Just brainstorming....

Outside of controlled green screen work I don't have any RED noise concerns, and even in that situation all you have to do is look at, say, a viper grab or even a 500T or 800T film scan and compare the noise in the blue channel to put things back in perspective.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Here is a 2k still grab from the H.264 file. There is fine-grained noise in the darker OOF background (probably amplified by H264 compression) but really none that I can see in the foreground on the boy's face, which is clear and natural looking beyond anything I'd expect from film. I'd think that the background noise could be removed with something like Neat Video, if desired.

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/Haakon-2k-a.jpg

By popular demand, here is a 4K tiff, a 1080 jpg, and a 720 jpg.

Besides providing smaller downloads and easier viewing, the smaller jpgs also help to illustrate the point I've been trying to make about the power of oversampling. Keep in mind the jpgs are both HD resolution - and they look far better than any competing camera I've seen...

Thank you guys. Much appeciated. And congrats again Häak! Great DoP job!! Your work doesn't owe nothing to the best Hollywood cinematographers.

 

[Caesar]

The footage is gorgeous, the bokeh is amazing. It's a bit rosy though, so I couldn't resist giving it a CC shot.

Sorry for adding some grain. The image was too clean for me!

Can you enlighten on the lenses used per each of these pics here posted? Aperture, shutter speed, etc. Thks.

 

[ChrisLyon]

They were posted in the first post on the thread if I'm not mistaken.

 

[SIRAJ KUMKHE]

Hey all,

I always enjoy seeing new clips people have shot with their RED

i enjoy with you clip .. its very promissing

 

[Häakon]

Here's a new greenscreen clip:

http://www.redrelay.net/owners/0079/films/greenh264.mov

This is in H264 so the codec and compression will make keying more difficult, but I will upload a 4K tiff momentarily...