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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Some explanation & apologies……

Michael Lindsay said:
A I/O module that encompasses high quality video DA and audio AD/DA stages and a load of formatting chips is unlikely to be cheap. The ET BOB is not that same thing.
Click to expand...

I suspect there's no video D/A. The Red One doesn't have analog video out, and I can't imagine the new I/O module will offer it either.

It's not entirely clear exactly what's being fed from the brain to the I/O module. Are the electronics in the brain responsible for feeding both a compressed Redcode data stream to the recording module and an uncompressed "video tap" image to the I/O module? Or do the brain electronics just feed out the Redcode-compressed signal, which then has to be decoded by the I/O module? If the latter, it's going to be more expensive.

The I/O module is obviously going to need some fairly high-quality D/A and A/D audio components in it, though, which don't come cheap. (Although I'd also like to take this opportunity to put in a request for a digital audio input.)

Michael Lindsay said:
An advanced propriety compact flash module that can handle the significant task that a Epic will demand is not like the current clip on SATA device.
Click to expand...

The module in the Red One is already faster than virtually every CF card on the market. I'm really not sure how much sense CF makes as a recording format for Epic. I wouldn't be stunned to see Red get rid of the option eventually because everyone wants the SSD module instead. (Much like they got rid of the optical port option for the Red One because once REDCODE RAW enabled on-board compressed 4K, there wasn't really enough demand to justify selling it.)
 
I see what you are saying Dave,

At first glance it seems a bit ill-conceived, how it pans out...

I personally think Jim should listen to you and what you are saying and maybe redo the figures a touch so the upgrade path to monstro is more equitable on the win-win path.

However, i think what most people have been annoyed at is not that fact, but the feeling of being ungrateful when considering the other mathematics...

Red one bought in 2007/8 for $17500.
Redone value in 2009 (before epic release) $17500
This is considering the trade in or the fact that someone will buy it for that (or probably more) to get an early epic.

This was all offered when most of the original users were willing to pay $45,000 for an epic with no upgrade with less specs than what we see now...

Its a good time to be an earlier adopter of red and i think when looked at from that perspective, the communication to red on this should probably reflect that respect which was shown to us, in the fact that an upgrade path so generous was offered at all.

So maybe if you express your ideas from that angle in mind then it won't be so perceived as ungrateful, as it looks like many people have perceived you.

I'm sure as this evolves things will only get better as it always has in red land. I really believe this journey has been so great because of the relationship between red and the customers. Like all relationships its a two way process in which mutual respect must be up-kept or it just wont work.
 
Ah Endless speculation....

Ah Endless speculation....

1. All the parts will be higher performance and cheaper than red one by the same rule that guides hard drive size/ processor speed/and laptop pricing.

2. All the trade in REDS will be sold in Eastern Africa or India with agreements forbidding import to the western countries or the software will explode.

3. Jim will change the X deal to include all the brains because it just makes sense that he does not want to discourage us from spending more and Jim seems very sensible to me.

4. Dave makes wonderful math models and reminds me of why I had trouble with economics in college.

5. The performance characteristics of the EPIC and SCARLET will be vastly different and better than the current announcements. Jim's philosophy and technical changes over the development cycle. I'm expecting FF to do a low sensitivity / high sensitivity frame recording to get a dynamic range in excess of 30 stops.

6 What part of our RED Kit will fit on the EPIC?
a. matt box
b. rods
c. baseplate?
d. follow focus
e. after market lens mounts ie Canon FD and Canon EOS?
f. Red Nikon Mount?
g. Top Handle and 100mm brackets?
h. RED1 batts
g. RED 1 CF cards?
h. RED 1 digital mags.
I aftermarket pieces fm various mfgs? ie BNC out Breakout boxes etc???
 
tj williams said:
6 What part of our RED Kit will fit on the EPIC?
a. matt box
b. rods
c. baseplate?
d. follow focus
e. after market lens mounts ie Canon FD and Canon EOS?
f. Red Nikon Mount?
g. Top Handle and 100mm brackets?
h. RED1 batts
g. RED 1 CF cards?
h. RED 1 digital mags.
I aftermarket pieces fm various mfgs? ie BNC out Breakout boxes etc???
Click to expand...

T.J. this might alleviate this portion of your concerns or provide you with some consternation on some of your AKS.:)

From Jon Sagud's "EPIC Upgrade FAQs"

"What accessories are compatible between RED ONE and EPIC?
All RED EVFs, RED LCDs, RED Brick batteries and RED Chargers, PL mount lenses and external RED RAID and RED Flash Drives are compatible between the current and future systems. Exceptions would include the RED ONE CF Module, bottom mounting hardware (dovetail/bottom plate), RED Top Mounts or any component specific to the shape of the RED ONE. Anything connecting via signal or power path is fully compatible."
__________________
Big Jon

Source thread:
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=343844&postcount=1

Hope this helps you...

Benz
 
Thanks for the clarification so going to Epic:
The following aks I have bought are junk?

1. RED base production pack $1250
2. RED shoulder dovetail 500
3. RED Cheese Plate 350
4. RED Handle 250
5. RED top handle 150
6. RED top handle extension 175
7. RED Universal mounts (4) 500
8. RED Top mounts (2) 500
9. RED wingnut bolt set 109
10 RED focus hook 45

RED AKS Total not usable $3829

Aftermarket:

1. Canon FD Lens Mount Adapter $600
2. Canon EOS lens mount Adapter 1600
3. Element Technica EVF Mount 1190*
4. Element Technica Breakout box 580

Aftermarket Total not usable: $3970

*I expect this to be made usable but so far dont see how it mounts to the Epic on upper rods full length just on the bottom rods pretty awkward.

So I have purchased $7799 worth of accessories for my RED1 believing that it would not become obsolete.

When I upgrade to the RED Epic SSX I will pay 10,500 difference because of the generous trade in, and special package offered.

I will lose about $7799 in accessory purchases. I will probably pay another 7000 for new accessories to fit my Epic. So my total upgrade cost to the special package will be

$10,500 upgrade difference
$7799 accessories I can no longer use
7000 new Epic accessories

$25,299 in upgrade costs for my Epic S35X

Note: This number will probably change downward as I anticipate aftermarket lens mount suppliers selling adapters to take my RED 1 lens mounts in EOS and FD to Epic/Scarlet and additional aftermarket suppliers selling adapters to some of the mechanical accessories. This number could also go upward as I may need special mounting for my existing RED1 digital mags and AB Style batts.

My question is why can't the Epic or Scarlet bodies be close enough in base size screw offsets from the lens mount etc. to use my current mechanical accessories given that the company is committed to making obsolesence obsolete? This would save me 14K+ in mechanical accessories!
 
Just wondering, if you bought a base prod. pack, why are you adding the dovetail? You don't need to throw away that entire base prod. pack either. You can still use the Red drive cradle/battery setup, the rods, the handle, and the included universal mount. The only thing you're throwing away is the cradle and dovetail. Both of which could be easily sold for some money when the time comes. People will still use the Red One for years. I don't see the used market for Red AKS dropping to a zero return. This isn't RAM we're talking about. I am pretty sure that you will still be able to use the following on an Epic system,

Red Handle (this can attatch to the 19mm rods. Judging by the renders, it looks like you'll be able to use the entire Red handle mount set that we currently have for the Red One)
Red Top Handle
Top Handle Extension
4 Universal Mounts (Epic will allow for 15 and 19 configs just like we have now, no need to throw these away)
Red Wingnut Bolt Set
Element Technica EVF mount (I fully expect this to work with Epic in some way, if it doesn't work right away, believe me, ET will find a solution, this is not something you will lose money on)

So, I just saved you roughly $2,300.
tj williams said:
Thanks for the clarification so going to Epic:
The following aks I have bought are junk?

1. RED base production pack $1250
2. RED shoulder dovetail 500
3. RED Cheese Plate 350
4. RED Handle 250
5. RED top handle 150
6. RED top handle extension 175
7. RED Universal mounts (4) 500
8. RED Top mounts (2) 500
9. RED wingnut bolt set 109
10 RED focus hook 45

RED AKS Total not usable $3829

Aftermarket:

1. Canon FD Lens Mount Adapter $600
2. Canon EOS lens mount Adapter 1600
3. Element Technica EVF Mount 1190*
4. Element Technica Breakout box 580

Aftermarket Total not usable: $3970

*I expect this to be made usable but so far dont see how it mounts to the Epic on upper rods full length just on the bottom rods pretty awkward.

So I have purchased $7799 worth of accessories for my RED1 believing that it would not become obsolete.

When I upgrade to the RED Epic SSX I will pay 10,500 difference because of the generous trade in, and special package offered.

I will lose about $7799 in accessory purchases. I will probably pay another 7000 for new accessories to fit my Epic. So my total upgrade cost to the special package will be

$10,500 upgrade difference
$7799 accessories I can no longer use
7000 new Epic accessories

$25,299 in upgrade costs for my Epic S35X

Note: This number will probably change downward as I anticipate aftermarket lens mount suppliers selling adapters to take my RED 1 lens mounts in EOS and FD to Epic/Scarlet and additional aftermarket suppliers selling adapters to some of the mechanical accessories. This number could also go upward as I may need special mounting for my existing RED1 digital mags and AB Style batts.

My question is why can't the Epic or Scarlet bodies be close enough in base size screw offsets from the lens mount etc. to use my current mechanical accessories given that the company is committed to making obsolesence obsolete? This would save me 14K+ in mechanical accessories!
Click to expand...
 
Justin my search didn't find those statements.... trying to search RED site!!!!
Where are they? The renders look like a lot of my stuff wouldn't fit esp. the after market lens adapters to Canon....
TJ

Rikchard
Yea right athe dovedail is part of basic pak, mine didnt fit and was replaced but didnt pay for it additionally.... my mistake.
TJ
 
Andrew Benz said:
....Exceptions would include the RED ONE CF Module, bottom mounting hardware (dovetail/bottom plate), RED Top Mounts or any component specific to the shape of the RED ONE.
Click to expand...

Okay..all the Red handles probably are okay.
Not sure about the side handles or cheese plate...hope so!!
Red dovetail can be easily milled to fit Arri/ET plates.


1. CF card goes, okay....$500
2. Base production pack is worth $2600 and I can't use $850 of it so call that even.
3. other top mount is obsolete........ $250
4. Focus hook......$45

total = $895


So correct me if I'm wrong (why don't I have to say that...!!) but so far it's only $895 plus canon stuff

I didn't buy canon/nikon mounts....but I'm sorry for you as you did and they don't fit.

I'd imagine the ET will come up with another EVF mount bracket to screw onto the Epic/Scarlet. Ronford just have.

I suspect Jim will keep the incompatibility down to a minimum but will come up with better shiny newer components which we'll want.

lenses mounts are an interesting one thou!

D
 
Pay 4800 USD and you'll get Mysterium-X in your R1 and keep all your accessories.

Upgraded R1 with S35MX should be a better camera than any Scarlet and even can compete with Epic (it's cheaper).

It is because that nobody knows how will Scarlet and Epic designs perform.

THINK SODERBERGH (or think like a Soderbergh).

As Jim quotes Soderbergh: "We have what we have and that is plenty enough (for today)

to do something meaningful. If you give me more, I'll do more. But I have enough now."

Try to think how your R1 can be better for you even after upgrade.

Don't think about that the new toys can be better.

One more thing:

Even RED Laboratory is testing Mysterium-X on "upgraded" Frankie.

1229523338.jpg

15_1229569555.jpg

15_1229568860.jpg


What about Scarlet or Epic?

Who cares about it today?

Give us a Mysterium-X in R1 tomorrow and we can see how it works.

When Scarlet and Epic design improve then I jumping in it too.

Till then I would be very satisfied with upgraded R1 to MX S35 sensor.
 
Well spotted about the proto body reuse,sanjin
it's just a mount for lens/sensor, ay.

The main point back there is what kit will be redundant once you move away from R1.
D
ps: listening to the drummer boy again
 
Sanjin great interesting pictures.

Looking at epic/scarlet renders and can't see why they could not be built with an intermediate plate to allow use of current aftermarket lens mounts. that for me would go a long way to making obsolesence obsolete

TJ
 
Jarred Land said:
Top mount from RED ONE base plate wont fit from RED ONE. Thats about it.

Bottom Plate and shoulder mount can work in combination with the cheese plate, all the handles, all the 19mm accessories. Even the Battery plate and Batteries from RED ONE will work on Scarlet/Epic. Even the side handles from RED ONE will work.. they actually fit on this configuration above perfectly.

Sadly, your gonna hafta part with your MiniDIN-BNC cables though.. you wont need those going forward, I hope not too many people will be upset about that one.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you attach the top handles to the old universal mounts unless they're developed a new kind of low profile universal mount. Either way I expect they'll have two anchor points and not one like on the BlackSpin.mov render.

D
 
David thanks for digging that out. That is good news going fwd.

I'm hoping the RED designers also take cognizance of the after market mounts for FD which they will probably not support, and for which Kevin has made a very nice mount adapter, and all the Birger work on developing cine/ style focus on EOS lenses. Perhaps some kind of intermediate plate to allow us to continue to use these!!
also hoping the power input Lemo is the same as i have several power input options and I hear quite a few people have wired up lunchbox batt power cables also. Wishing they would say more to rreassure those of us who have invested pretty heavily in RED ! aks!!!
 
david farland said:
I'm guessing you attach the top handles to the old universal mounts unless they're developed a new kind of low profile universal mount. Either way I expect they'll have two anchor points and not one like on the BlackSpin.mov render.

D
Click to expand...

The top handles use the RED bolt pattern... something that will carry along to the new cameras / accessories.

I know it is tempting to start basing decisions off of the renders.. but don't. You guys have read only half the pages in the book.

I guess we can't say this too many times.. All Specifications are subject to Change. Count on it, and you won't be disappointed.
 
Jarred Land said:
I guess we can't say this too many times.. All Specifications are subject to Change. Count on it, and you won't be disappointed.
Click to expand...

Which is why I'm content shooting R1 right now and letting the chips fall where they may in a few months. Until there are locked in specs, upgrade paths, and dollar figures attached, it's merely a fun conversation. Or in this case, a math equation that had my head spinning from the first post. :biggrin:
 
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