Some evaluation of the Red

[Steve Sanacore]

Isn't the camera body is a very small part of the rental? If people want to shoot on RED, I think all the rental houses will have them. True, it may not be as profitable as renting an Arri D21, but the reality is that unless Arri comes up with a 4K camera at a lower price, they probably won't rent often anyway.

I just don't understand the point of GDV's post at all. Who cares who rents them and at what price? How does that effect our films and our work?

 

[JohnLands]

Everyone on earth has access to a 35mm photo camera. But not everyone is making amazing images. You still need good lenses and support to go along with the red. The compression the shutter and the daylight balanced sensor makes the red not a feature film BIG budget camera im sorry it just doesnt. Not to mention the workflow issues. The camera is a great tool but just because you can rent it for cheap doesnt mean anything. The amount of gear to go with it makes it still exspensive to shoot on. Here is a list of gear we used for the last feature we shot on the red. Then we shot a 100 thousand with just the base production pack and the red lenses. You cant even compare the two movies in quility and production value even though they were both shot on the red. Ive seen alot of movies look like crap that were shot on 35mm and super 16. Film or Red doesnt make the film good the film maker does so the fact you can rent a body for cheap means NOTHING. Also rental houses that have them mean nothing if they cant support the cameras. The only reason our rental house was able to do such a large movie on the red was the support we offered with it and the gear we brought to support it. You will have ALOT of angry customers with the red if it is not supported well. And that will be the downfall of the camera. People renting it and not suporting it causing rumors and horror storys that just have no facts to them. In short the above post has no bearing on the rental of the camera if you offer the right support people will rent from you no matter the cost difference.

6 x Reds,
2 x EVF's
6 x Arri 19mm Base Plate Sliding Dove Tail & Full Cinema Support
6 x Hot-Swap Battery Supply for RED Cameras (non-stop shooting)
1 x Set of Arri Master Primes: 14, 18, 21, 35, 50, 75 & 100mm T1.3 (best lenses I have ever seen)
1 x Arri Ultra Prime 180mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 100mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 135mm T2.0
1 x Cooke 18-100 Mark II T3.0
1 x Cooke 25-250 Mark II T4.0
2 x Steadicams
1 x Super Techno Crane
2 x ArriHead 2 Geared Head
9 x Panasonic 8.4" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
7 x Panasonic 17" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
1 x Panasonic 26" HD LCD Monitor with waveform
5 x Preston Full Fiz Wireless Follow Focus Systems
1 x Viewfactor Prototype Remote VTR Start and Stop
6 x MB20 4 x5 Mattebox
2 x MB14 6x6 Mattebox
2 x LMB5 4x5 Clamp-on Mattebox
6 x FF5 Follow Focus
4 x Cine Tapes
6 x Ambient Clockit Boxes
1 x HyperDrive (This is the world's Fastest Memory Card Backup system)

 

[Matthew Verkler]

I was going to call the first post on this thread "ridiculous bullshit", but I feel restraint is in order. I think it can be easily stated that the price of Red rentals will not drop to 60 quid. That part is ridiculous. But the fears of some are understandable - they have a lot of money invested that is now threatened.

I've heard this music and played this game many times before - it's just a part of progress. Think about the personal computer, desktop publishing, MIDI, Final Cut Pro. All were disruptive technologies - those who didn't take advantage of what they offered suffered, and the same is now true of Red. It can work for you or against you, your choice.

For big rental houses, what could help push expensive glass and accessories better than Red? It appeals to countless customers that were not in the market to rent film-style gear before. Certainly lens manufacturers have seen the upside and are responding to the opportunity. And many other manufacturers as well.

Final Cut did a good job of eating away at the lower end of my post business - yes, it was priced too low and many unqualified people started calling themselves editors, and there was downward price pressure. Eventually I got rid of my Nitris as the local market just wasn't paying enough to justify it. I switched over to powerful Final Cut systems, which by then were able to handle high level work with enough plug-ins and supplemental programs like After Effects, Combustion, and Motion. I wasn't charging as much as before, but became more profitable as I wasn't having to pay the exorbitant and continual upgrade costs required by the Nitris. I didn't let my prices go all the way down, but at least I was able to meet my customers halfway or more and still keep profitable. Eventually the effect of the low-end wannabes lessened as customers understood that nowadays it's less about the gear and more about who's driving. I think this dynamic will be true for Red as well.

I do understand the original poster's point about "pricing too low". I worked for six years in Japan in the late 80's and early 90's - in that market, price seemed to be the biggest determination of perceived quality, and for some products, increasing the price by double actually increased sales dramatically. Europe seems to have some of these tendencies as well in my more limited experience there. The U.S. is a more dynamic and price-competitive market, and is largely responsible for driving innovation in the world. Perhaps Red should double its prices for outside the U.S.? (just kidding, seriously)

The greater impact of having 4000 Reds in the wild is yet to be seen, it's clear to me that Red is opening up all kinds of opportunity, including to other competing manufacturers if they decide to take advantage of this new direction in the marketplace. I'm just glad to be able to offer my clients the image quality that I desire at a price they can afford, and with a workflow and turnaround that fits today's compressed schedules.

Red is creating a new and unprecedented economy of scale for imaging at this level - prices can be lower when you're selling thousands of units instead of less than a hundred. It's still no casual investment, but it's doable for a lot more people. I hope that as a community, we can use this new and capable tool to do better storytelling, and make money as well.

 

[D Namir]

your criticism is that it's inexpensive???

uh huh... ok...

yes, I hear rental houses that has Red and these that still don't has them and what they say is that the Red rental rate will be very low due to the flooding. Now when you are keeping your Red camera at your garage its one thing but then when you have a rental house and has many expenses it is another deal.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

yes, I hear rental houses that has Red and these that still don't has them and what they say is that the Red rental rate will be very low due to the flooding. Now when you are keeping your Red camera at your garage its one thing but then when you have a rental house and has many expenses it is another deal.

you could give the body for free....and earn on the assec./lenses/gear/support/post....the whole pipeline will earn you the money....not a body

 

[D Namir]

you could give the body for free....and earn on the assec./lenses/gear/support/post....the whole pipeline will earn you the money....not a body

I know that, believe me I wrote a book about that. I see the Red camera as "another hungry PL mouth" for lenses.
That wasn't my point and you seems not to get it... never mind... future will tell.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I know that, believe me I wrote a book about that. I see the Red camera as "another hungry PL mouth" for lenses.
That wasn't my point and you seems not to get it... never mind... future will tell.

gdv the point is 20 people try to understand you...

i really want to understand....but its like in this old TV series, where two boys stand around and this dolphin comes a long and tries to explain something.
The boys ask themselves: What tries Flipper to tell us.

this is no dissing....i am really interessted in your opinion...
make it for the dummies..

 

[Ed Watkins]

I know that, believe me I wrote a book about that. I see the Red camera as "another hungry PL mouth" for lenses.
That wasn't my point and you seems not to get it... never mind... future will tell.

Your point seems to be (and correct me if i'm wrong) that you think the RED will rent for a ludicrously low price because there will be a too many of them in the market, hence rental houses are avoiding them because their margins, and demand, will be too low.

I say, a valid point perhaps, but probably no where near as dramatic as you are implying.

I think rental houses are more likely to be unwilling to take the REDs for two reasons:
1) The workflow and firmware are still beta, and the RED really requires a DIT.
2) When the RED is finally out of beta, and stable, it will undercut their current rental pricing structure, just like it has done with the camera market.
Why would they want to rent a RED out over an F900 that cost them $100,000?

Either way, there will be demand for the RED, and those who have good reliable packages and support will always make fair money for their rental.

 

[Erasmus]

yes, I hear rental houses that has Red and these that still don't has them and what they say is that the Red rental rate will be very low due to the flooding. Now when you are keeping your Red camera at your garage its one thing but then when you have a rental house and has many expenses it is another deal.

Just curious GDV.
It's just an observation about your speak and writing patterns.

What part of the world are you in?

 

[Richard Lackey]

In with the new, out with the old. The glass can be half full or half empty, it depends how you look at it, and if you choose to see it half full, you will not only weather the storm but come out on top of all the others that have chosen to see it half empty.

People need to see the opportunities Red is bringing, and take advantage of them instead of hanging on to the past and sinking with the ship.

Times change, technologies change and business models have to change also.

It's called a revolution, and it's busy happening, the old tried and tested ways will fall, and I won't mourn their passing because for me, the glass is half full and pretty soon it will be overflowing.

A few Red owners here in S.A. are coming together under one identity, 'Red One Africa' (yes, we checked with Red, Jim's okay with the name), and together we will be offering a start to finish Red rental, production, post, and D.I. finishing service in South Africa, and the continent as a whole that none of us could manage on our own.

The big S.A. rental houses don't have Red, some still think it's a scam, and unfortunately they are going to lose out in a big way. I can't help that some people simply don't want to change, and the revolution will hit them like a freight train.

What Verko posted is absolutely correct, it's the way things go. What once was a super niche high end service for a really tiny market will reverse from a high-cost low-volume model to a low-cost high volume model, and Red is the driving catalyst in this particular case.

Once people get hold of Scarlet, then you're really going to see things get shaken up.

 

[Marius V Graan]

I come from a developing country with a developing film industry, South African films are always low budget in international standards and only (some) of our commercials are big budget. When a big budget movie is made here it's ussually something around $5 million (locally produced and funded- not international co-productions). My first feature film I did with a Sony 750 HDCam, the films budget was only $650 000, and for us that was a lot of money, enough to get some of the cream of the local acting word involved. The reality is that the majority of our films just can't compete with international films, we have amazing stories, and sometimes there are breakthrough low budget films- but most of the time international distribution companies won't accept even those because they have been shot on a Z1 or something like that.

Rental companies' prices are determined by suppliers prices and the suppliers (Sony, etc) have been holding us all for ransom for far too long now. I support the revolution and I am proud to be a part of it!

 

[Joe Carney]

Since DV and HDV cameras still rent for 200 USD or more a day, saying the Red will go for less than 100 USD daily is not based on reality. It certainly isn't based on the opinion of someone with extensive real world experience in the rental market, or they are simply lying.
The low cost of the Red will enable Rental houses to buy several and have plenty of backup on hand.
This is just FUD.

 

[Chris Burket]

Large rental houses aren't avoiding it in the US. The largest rental facility in the US (probably the world), Panavision, has some of them. Others have the cameras, or have them on order. Rental facilities work off supply and demand. DP's demand certain cameras or lenses, the rental houses buy them (or make them).

 

[Christopher Gosch]

Every major rental house in Los Angeles has more than one RED. I have tested the Red side by side with the Genesis at Panavision and seen the Red at other major houses. It is a viable camera and the AKS and lenses will make up the difference in the low price for the body. An Arri/Zeiss Ultra prime will get its rate no matter what camera it is attached to. The Red is a tool - A good one - it is what is shot and how that is important.

 

[Martin Ludwig]

Bingo - i´ve found one of the silliest threads of the last decade....
should we now all list our equipment? hahaha

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You wouldn't have time...

 

[Buck Forester]

I don't feel qualified to comment because for one thing I don't even know what a quid is. And I'm waiting on a Scarlet so why am I in the RED forum? But when I read the post that started this thread I had to chuckle. Why would RED be concerned about the rental market? They're here to sell cameras to people. They'd rather have people buy their camera by the tens of thousands, rather than have only hundreds of rental places buying them and then renting them out. Then it's the rental companies making money on the cameras, not RED. I'm not following your logic, from RED's perspective or film maker's perspectives who prefer to have their own cameras they can actually afford. They're both big winners. But yes, I guess from a strictly rental agency perspective who might not be renting out those high-end (read expensive) cameras once RED saturates the market, they definitely should be worried about the affect it will have on their rental cameras. But... for everyone else in the industry... hello... that's a good thing, right? You betcha.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I hate to say it, but the initial post in this thread may be the silliest post in REDUser history. Even sillier than some of mine, and that takes some doing!

The thought that its low price will keep the camera out of the Hollywood or big-time rental business is just ludicrous on its face. $120 a day? Unbelievable.

This is beyond lunacy.

Stephen

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

 

[Richard Lackey]

I come from a developing country with a developing film industry, South African films are always low budget in international standards and only (some) of our commercials are big budget. When a big budget movie is made here it's ussually something around $5 million (locally produced and funded- not international co-productions). My first feature film I did with a Sony 750 HDCam, the films budget was only $650 000, and for us that was a lot of money, enough to get some of the cream of the local acting word involved. The reality is that the majority of our films just can't compete with international films, we have amazing stories, and sometimes there are breakthrough low budget films- but most of the time international distribution companies won't accept even those because they have been shot on a Z1 or something like that.

Rental companies' prices are determined by suppliers prices and the suppliers (Sony, etc) have been holding us all for ransom for far too long now. I support the revolution and I am proud to be a part of it!

The revolution is coming to South Africa don't you worry about that! Things are about to be shaken up a bit around this corner of the globe.