Some Audio Testing Results

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

10s, I would disagree. The HVX camera needs the extra physical interface for all those shoots where the shooter simply hooks up a mic or there is no recordist watching levels. The RED One is designed to work as a cinema camera meaning there is almost always a recordist. Once levels have been matched between camera and mixer, there is no more need to make any changes, hence no need for easily accessible level controls. (My .02.)

I don't believe that the RED camera is designed to be limited to any particular genre or filming situation

Gibby has been banging on about this since the beginning.

The audio is unusable if there is hiss. RED will sort it out as usual. Job Done.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

The hiss situation, to the extent that it exists, will have to be addressed. Like most folks, I am supremely confident that they will, indeed, be able to do so.

Stephen

 

[Stuart English]

Audio

Audio

Thanks for the response Stuart. So are you saying there is no way possible to record 1 input to more then 1 recording channel? This can not be done with a firmware tweak? It is a common feature that you can find on DVX cameras right up to F900 series.

I understand that it is Finner. Our approach - recognizing that its a hostile environment inside a digital video camera - was to make the analog path as short as possible. So its a direct connect to the pre-amp and A/D converter. But then its a 24 bit path not the traditional 16....

 

[philper]

I understand that it is Finner. Our approach - recognizing that its a hostile environment inside a digital video camera - was to make the analog path as short as possible. So its a direct connect to the pre-amp and A/D converter. But then its a 24 bit path not the traditional 16....

Aren't Sony F900s etc supposedly 20 bit? I hope you guys are able to make real use of those 24 bits, that would be a great breakthrough. Will the Red also do 16 bit if the user wants to (less storage space, compato files w/ other cameras etc)? In any case, most of my clients, eager to start renting if not buying this camera, will demand audio that is at least on a par w/ the HVX200.

Philip Perkins CAS

 

[Stuart English]

Audio bit depth

Audio bit depth

Aren't Sony F900s etc supposedly 20 bit?

The HDCAM tape format is, but the F900 camcorder data sheet isn't clear about that, however the Varicam and all the small format cameras such as DVX / HVX etc are only 16 bit.....

 

[S. Um]

But then its a 24 bit path not the traditional 16....

But you're not lowering the noise floor, so the signal to noise ratio is probably not more than 16 bits anyway.

I think most people who record 1 input to 2 channels do so to protect the signal from peaking or going too low. Not having this feature on top of not having limiters is not a good design. We have to live with it for now, but I hope Red updates the design in the future.

Using a Y-cable may be a work around for line level signals, but it can also add noise to mic level signals. I think someone already mentioned that we shouldn't have to have this type of workaround for a camera of this caliber.

 

[John Hunt]

The RED One is designed to work as a cinema camera meaning there is almost always a recordist. (My .02.)

Stop already with the cinema exclusivity. The RED One was designed to operate in a variety of environments, from run-and-gun doc to cinema. Run-and-gun is me - I have worked with a sound guy only occasionally in 20 years - so far so good. RED recognizes the diversity of their marketplace and they'll fix this issue as they always do.

 

[Stuart English]

Audio

Audio

There is no doubt that the highest quality audio recordings will be achieved by using a line level input to the camera from an external audio mixer/preamp.

 

[Finner]

There is no doubt that the highest quality audio recordings will be achieved by using a line level input to the camera from an external audio mixer/preamp.

Thanks for the responses to my questions Stuart. It seems very clear to me from the way this camera is built and the experience I have had with working with reds is that they are truely first and foremost a cine based camera. IMO Audio and other ways in which the camera works just does not lend itself to EFP style work and will be very dificult to use in that field of work.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Thanks for the responses to my questions Stuart. It seems very clear to me from the way this camera is built and the experience I have had with working with reds is that they are truely first and foremost a cine based camera. IMO Audio and other ways in which the camera works just does not lend itself to EFP style work and will be very dificult to use in that field of work.

I haven't been able to use a RED camera yet, but I can see that you may be right Finner. We've been expressing concern at REDUSER about the audio setup for months, or is it a year?
The thing is that at this price point a lot of RED buyers are going to be EFP people. I'd wager a majority really although most will fancy making a movie too. We see endless discussions about picture quality or ergonomics around here but audio is seldom mentioned. It's ironic because it actually could be a deal breaker. If you can't easily record decent audio then you can't use the camera in loads of situations. Better go use a Sony 750.. I'm not saying RED don't care.. how the hell would I know..? And from what they say here they seem to care a GREAT deal.. :weight_lift: But designing a camera without audio pots or limiters would suggest that some point someone didn't care very much about audio..
I guess I hoping very much that I'll be proved wrong. And that you are also wrong Finner.. because I want to use the RED camera for EFP work :mellow:

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

There is no doubt that the highest quality audio recordings will be achieved by using a line level input to the camera from an external audio mixer/preamp.

Stuart you are so right! Of course! No one here should be expecting some kind of RED audio miracle! I just really need to know that RED will have totally commercially usable audio from a shotgun mic mounted on the camera and plugged straight in. And also, to be fair, that using the audio will be easy enough to make it possible when you are running around freaking out about a million other issues.. :wink:

 

[JFirestone]

Ok, now I've done a bit more testing, and let me preface with what some of my settings are. My headphone volume is cranked all the way up and so are both of my channels in the headphone menu, I think my sound guy did this, but I think it amplifies everything and makes these things more evident. Also my mic levels were set very high at the full 54db, and this will come into play through the test. These are observations only through the headphones, not from recordings.

I've only tested channels one and two but have the same results on each.
1. No inputs enabled yielded complete silence, as if off.
2. Line level gives slight hiss (likely due to everything being boosted so high in my other settings, but this seems like typical noise, nothing strange.)
3. Mic level gives same hiss, however tapping on the body on or near the audio jacks yields sound as if from an onboard microphone. (No mic is connected at this time.) This is really wierd.....is there some sort of mic on the body of the camera? I even see levels when I tap or rub my fingers over the audio jacks. Really wierd.
4. Mic +48v has a slight hiss followed after about 10 seconds with very loud hiss that registers about half way up on the audio meters. This is with my audio level set at 54db...and when this is set lower it lowers likewise. This is only with no mic plugged in, when my ME66 is plugged in it returns to normal.

Ok now another observation. When Qaud mix is selected I hear noise in my headphones, I believe from channels that are disabled. So for example I hear that really loud hiss from my channel 2 which is off, but set at mic+48 and is boosted to the maximum.

Can anyone else duplicate these results?

Jon Firestone
#232

 

[Michael Hastings]

Mini mixer device needed for RED

Mini mixer device needed for RED

There is no doubt that the highest quality audio recordings will be achieved by using a line level input to the camera from an external audio mixer/preamp.

What is obviously needed is a small beachtek type box with full size xlrs and output to a cable to the mini xlrs that would have limiter and level control at a minimum with ability to split one input to two channels with different output levels.

Any takers?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

What is obviously needed is a small beachtek type box with full size xlrs and output to a cable to the mini xlrs that would have limiter and level control at a minimum with ability to split one input to two channels with different output levels.

Any takers?

I suppose you are right. But the camera is so big, heavy, and damned unwieldy already, (for my needs).

Of course I understand that other people will have a different perspective..

Has anyone done a simple test with a shotgun mic on the camera? (a shotgun with a fairly generous spread, like a Sennheiser K6 M66).
Has anyone done an hour of continuous recording in normal ambient temperature to test the fans?
How difficult is it to change the audio levels whilst the camera is on the shoulder filming?

I'm worried about the audio.. if it's a pain in the ass then the camera is a pain in the ass (for me).. In four years of filming independent docos I have never had a sound recordist (I know, it hurts me to say it, I used to record sound for a living). So the "get a sound recordist" answer isn't cutting it for me..:sad:

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What is obviously needed is a small beachtek type box with full size xlrs and output to a cable to the mini xlrs that would have limiter and level control at a minimum with ability to split one input to two channels with different output levels.

Any takers?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh .......


AirSeaLand is on the case I believe -

 

[Cail Young]

I Has anyone done an hour of continuous recording in normal ambient temperature to test the fans?

Without a RED DRIVE, this isn't possible, so we should be finding out very soon on this particular question.

 

[10s]

What is obviously needed is a small beachtek type box with full size xlrs and output to a cable to the mini xlrs that would have limiter and level control at a minimum with ability to split one input to two channels with different output levels.

Any takers?

What really is needed is a proper in-camera audio design.

What is so difficult with creating a decent & accessible audio system?

1. 
   

Why all the work arounds?

Will another company have to come about to solve this issue?

1. 
   

When will it end?

Somewhere I got the idea that RED would make a camera that would make filmming accessible for low cost producers. Somehow it's evolving away from that simple dream to become a complicated/extended system needing all sorts of extras. While I embrace and enjoy an open ended system that allows big production dual system operations, it would be nice to have a system that allows one to work in an easy self contained manner as well.

The DVX & HVX allows simple usage, why doesn't the RED allow also?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

What really is needed is a proper in-camera audio design.

What is so difficult with creating a decent & accessible audio system?

1. 
   

Why all the work arounds?

Will another company have to come about to solve this issue?

1. 
   

When will it end?

Somewhere I got the idea that RED would make a camera that would make filmming accessible for low cost producers. Somehow it's evolving away from that simple dream to become a complicated/extended system needing all sorts of extras. While I embrace and enjoy an open ended system that allows big production dual system operations, it would be nice to have a system that allows one to work in an easy self contained manner as well.

The DVX & HVX allows simple usage, why doesn't the RED allow also?

This is my worry..

BTW.. remember the first Sony DV camera the VX1000? It needed a beach box to plug in the sound too.. lol :usd:

 

[Stuart English]

Audio capability

Audio capability

Somewhere I got the idea that RED would make a camera that would make filmming accessible for low cost producers. Somehow it's evolving away from that simple dream to become a complicated/extended system

10s, lets have that debate after you have had the opportunity to shoot with the RED, as I'm not buying this argument...

Deal?

 

[Finner]

Stuart when I shot with the camera the fan shut off when rolling is that still the case?

How long will the fan stay off lets say I was shooting a doc interview for 45 minutes on a red drive in a standard temp room will the fan stay off the whole time?

Also when the fan kicks in in silent mode how quiet is it? Please note set sound mixers are nazi's and can hear a fly fart so it needs to be as quiet or quieter then a sound sync 35mm camera.

Thanks