Software for Post

[Steve Freebairn]

This poll is so that the Community can possibly get some info from the Red team on support for other post workflows besides the Apple exclusive one.

Definitions.

Apple only: at no point in time will you use a PC to view/review, edit, copy, duplicate, transfer, or do whatever to any footage shot on Red. Everything you do will only be done with Apple Products.

Other: You'll use products other than just Apple products and are interested in knowing how products like Adobe (specifically After Effects, Premiere, and Photoshop), Avid, etc will be able to work with Redcode raw (without having to go through Redcine).



I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate all the effort that the Red team has put in and even if I did have to switch to an all Apple post workflow I could, but I'd rather not. I know that I have the option of using Redcine to convert to whatever format, but I'd really like to be able to do what I saw demonstrated at NAB with Final Cut, but use Premiere and After Effects.

 

[MikeCurtis]

I said "other" although Apple will be my primary. I just want to stay open to lots of choices, as I'm sure my clients will have lots of different workflows.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

All of the above and then some... OK, not really. I don't use Vegas anymore and I don't use Avid. But I do use many of Adobe's tools along with several other applications, some of which are platform specific.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Avid, After Effects, Digital Fusion, and who knows what else...
Probably FCP also, if the clients use it...

I guess you would be able to open a Redcode file in After effects using Quicktime, but will you have access to the full 4K resolution ?
Can you disable the quicktime 2K / 1K / 0.5 K proxy mode in order to see your footage in full quality (even if it's not realtime, for use in after effects for example) ?

 

[Kevin Halverson]

We are a mixture of different platforms, PCs, SGIs and Apples. The Adobe suite is our primary tools but some of our people also use FCP. Cross platform compatibility is essential for our needs.

I think that if Redcine & Redquick were released (even as a beta) a lot of questions about the post work flow could be taken from speculation and conjecture to a real work flow concept.

 

[Gbabymogul]

Funny you post this, as i was just chatting about this the other day...

Personally, i'm waiting until the last moment to set up our editing suite, but although i'd prefer to have an Avid suite, if you want to edit and finish (preview, secondary color etc...) even at 1080p you're looking at a Nitris or Adrenaline suite.

The most salient difference between Avid and FCP is that Avid has still bought into the offline proxy editing solution and thus protect their higher end margin products. Either they are oblivious to the coming revolution of offline moving to online editing and finishing or they simply believe it to be a mistake/fad that won't work. All you have to do is look at MichaelP's (on that other Avid thread) comments on editing - basically that processing power will never be good enough for online editing 1080/2K/4K to see how the field is arrayed. A year ago their were professionals taking about how 4K was too much info. to be able to be reasonably acquired digitally.

DNxHD isn't a finishing codec , even if you tried the work arounds to secondary color, so unless you have free bay time over at Deluxe or technicolor the answer is ???

Vegas doesn't have the depth to deal with RED's data, Avid only has offline editing codecs (DNxHD) and demands if you want to finish to go to their $1000/hour suites, FCP doesn't have the media management of Avid and their Color app is far away from being user free, Adobe ? someone else can answer that.

So what's the best answer? I'd like to know.

 

[number6]

Adobe Premiere CS3 and AE CS3, while maintaining my original footage in an unretouched backup. Hoping to get output that will be satisfactory for the festivals.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'd be interested to see an Apple/Non-Apple "NLE only" poll - there are just WAY too many tools outside Apple for post production -

 

[Steve Freebairn]

I'd be interested to see an Apple/Non-Apple "NLE only" poll - there are just WAY too many tools outside Apple for post production -

This is basically that, I was hoping to be able to show that even though the Final Cut integration is awesome, we need to know about the support of other NLE's and post tools.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I use FCP since version 1.0. In these times Avid was the only pro software (only available on the MAC) around and expensive - not affordable for a young director to fiddle around with... nowadays FCP is pro and still darn cheap.

I am glad that RED will support FCP, no more investment here.

For colour correction, I will get SpeedGrade (not Apple and a great, reliable workhorse) since Apple Color is like FinalTouch used to be: Interesting Software to play with, pretty clunky and miles away from prime time.

Compositing for me is Shake (Apple). Together with Furnace (The Foundry) a very powerfull and mature problem solver.

Sound: Soundtrack 2 is one big Bug. No prime time here either. Apple has to work on this app. a lot. ST2 could be a brilliant tool.

And Maya and Vue are not Apple either.

So enough reason to vote other.

Hans

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

This is basically that, I was hoping to be able to show that even though the Final Cut integration is awesome, we need to know about the support of other NLE's and post tools.

Name ONE app you can't use RED footage in?

The way I understand it - it's only a question for NLE realtime editing from REDCODE RAW - which we know will be possible in FCP.

Any app that takes Quicktime can use the footage - AE, Fusion, Nuke, etc. etc.

And you can use REDCINE to create files in DPX, etc. etc.

 

[Gbabymogul]

Offhollywood, what would be the Avid workflow ?

A month away from the cameras release and i have no clue.

:huh:

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Offhollywood, what would be the Avid workflow ?

A month away from the cameras release and i have no clue.

:huh:

what is your current "Avid workflow" ? are you finishing (color grading) on DS or Nitris - or just cutting (off-line) ? Are you on a PC Adrenaline system?

 

[Curran Giddens]

I'd be interested to see an Apple/Non-Apple "NLE only" poll - there are just WAY too many tools outside Apple for post production -

I assumed Kinobairn meant "NLE only" for this poll which is why I choose Apple only, or, more specifically, Final Cut Pro 6. But for compositing and vfx with other post tools I will be using anything from Adobe AE CS3, Commotion Pro 4.1, Shake 4.1, to maybe even Nuke 4.7.

 

[Gbabymogul]

what is your current "Avid workflow" ? are you finishing (color grading) on DS or Nitris - or just cutting (off-line) ? Are you on a PC Adrenaline system?

Currently we rent everything and finish (depending on the project) in a variety of high end suites. The suite i want to purchase is to finish my own projects (and possibly some business) to 1080p/2K. Really, it's to segue into working for myself with the occasional larger commercial project going rental and hiring our usual studio/freelance personel. This may mean hiring freelancers to work in my boutique studio, or me attempting it myself (on small projects). Mostly though, I don't want to put Alot of $$$ that i don't have into a full on post production suite.

Apple seemed to be the answer to finishing, but i'm not so sure now. And i'd prefer to
go with Avid, so in post i'd feel more comfortable instead of being akin to a backseat driver, hehe. So, i'm looking for all the possibilities of maximizing RED footage to finish in 1080/2K regardless of NLE, but i don't know how to do that with Avid.

Basically, if you were shooting 4K RAW and intended on finishing (except for vfx, sound) to 1080p, how would you do that in Avid, or what mid-level NLE to use ?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Currently we rent everything and finish (depending on the project) in a variety of high end suites. The suite i want to purchase is to finish my own projects (and possibly some business) to 1080p/2K. Really, it's to segue into working for myself with the occasional larger commercial project going rental and hiring our usual studio/freelance personel. This may mean hiring freelancers to work in my boutique studio, or me attempting it myself (on small projects). Mostly though, I don't want to put Alot of $$$ that i don't have into a full on post production suite.

Apple seemed to be the answer to finishing, but i'm not so sure now. And i'd prefer to
go with Avid, so in post i'd feel more comfortable instead of being akin to a backseat driver, hehe. So, i'm looking for all the possibilities of maximizing RED footage to finish in 1080/2K regardless of NLE, but i don't know how to do that with Avid.

Basically, if you were shooting 4K RAW and intended on finishing (except for vfx, sound) to 1080p, how would you do that in Avid, or what mid-level NLE to use ?

If you RENT everything - than for the LOVE OF GOD buy yourself a nice 8-core MacPro and FinalCut Studio - your ROI should be VERY, VERY fast - AND it will make a great REDCINE render/transcode workstation. I have worked with and "held the hands" of MANY die-hard Avid editors who made the transition to FCP - and it's very fast and easy.

As far as a specific Avid workflow - I would not want to recommend that until I get a build of REDCINE and run some tests. Obviously RED is aware that there are LOTS of editors who want AVID support - so I would expect to see something specific there unless AVID totally drops the ball - I would ASSUME, right out of the box - you could transcode to he Avid Meridien Codec out of REDCINE -

If you email me a week or so after #6 & #7 are in our hands - I'd be happy to give you a specific recommendation.

 

[Gbabymogul]

If you RENT everything - than for the LOVE OF GOD buy yourself a nice 8-core MacPro and FinalCut Studio - your ROI should be VERY, VERY fast - AND it will make a great REDCINE render/transcode workstation. I have worked with and "held the hands" of MANY die-hard Avid editors who made the transition to FCP - and it's very fast and easy.

Haha, well the rentals are prepaid by realized revenue (either client or market). This will be a wee bit different, but point well made, mate

If you email me a week or so after #6 & #7 are in our hands - I'd be happy to give you a specific recommendation.

Thanx! That should help a lot. We should be getting the camera a little bit after you, and getting the NLE suite right before, so any help would be appreciated

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gbabymogul,

Just based on what you posted, rental and all that, I have to second what Mark said. Buy a nice Apple setup. You'll find it will pay for itself very quickly. And it has to be cheaper than renting if you have a steady work load.

I'm curious to know how RED will work with Avid too. I personally won't be using it, but I know that I will have clients and some Avid people I know asking about how RED and Avid can work together. But for me, the price to performance ratio of Apple FCS2 and integrated REDCODE support just makes perfect sense.

 

[Gbabymogul]

Hi Jeff. By rental i meant the post production houses etc... for us it's about relationships (and skill sets) editors, colorists, sound, mix, vfx etc...so i really don't see that changing that much, in that way (since it's less the tech and more the talent involved).

Since i want to do more personal projects and broaden my own skill set (within reason) it's less related to recouping the investment. And have the setup professional enough for finishing 1080p/2K, with possible freelance employees.

Finding the right NLE to fit with the budget has been interesting. I saw that many of the peeps who voted on the poll are going other than Apple. I'd be curious to know their choice and workflow. Is everyone going to online somewhere else? ...

Vegas ? - Macgregor's using that right ?

Adobe?

I guess the L.A test will be using Apple. Maybe we'll get a mini-review///

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Just so there is more info behind my question. My ideal workflow would be to use Premiere to Edit, then After effects for compositing and basic FX and mograph. I'd be using Dynamic Link from Ae so that I don't have to keep anything but a tape backup of the original files and then the project files (no renders or intermediates). I'd like to know if when I go to open up a Redcode raw file if it will be anything like trying to use HDV in Ae (which is terrible on any machine).

What the Red team has done with Final Cut is amazing, I'm just hoping that Adobe and Red can work together to widen our choices in Post.