Software builds in one place.

[Brandon Kraemer]

I'm not one to complain... but I'd like to ask for some help from Red when it comes to software updates. Increasingly, software beta releases are only being offered on the forum, via embedded links in long threads, sometimes multiple links across pages of threads with versions changing from post to post. Meanwhile, there is the red.com/support page with software downloads and Release History links for previous versions. The software on the support page is also in many cases "beta" and like all things, subject to upgrade.

The issue I have, and I think others do as well, is the general disorganized nature of the way software updates are offered. It would be great if when builds are announced on the forum, they have links or mentions to the red.com/support page. The support page could also have sub-links to beta versions, keeping the "release" version the main download link, per software title.

Take the Apple Color REDCODE plugin 4.0 beta software for instance (although this applies to Redcine-X, camera builds, etc...). It doesn't even appear on the support page! Unless you constantly scour the forum, you would have no idea it even existed.

I often search the forum for news... but often I am too busy for weeks on end. It would be great to just go to the support page to learn if any of my essential apps and plugins have updates, beta or otherwise, at a glance. Otherwise there is a good chance I will miss it completely.

I've spent a lot of time and energy into keeping up with Red, but it's gotten so disorganized in this regard, and as a post production guy that has to keep up with all these tools, it puts me and others at a disadvantage.

If your looking for a simple way to assuage some of the people that complain about the complexity and quirkiness of the Red workflow in post production, or... just do your hard core user group that are really advocates for Red a "solid"; organizing how you present software updates, beta or otherwise would be a great step.

 

[Brent Carter]

Yes, some alpha or early beta builds get posted on REDUSER first. Once we get feedback and make changes (as needed), they get formally posted on RED.com support. So, don't think of it as " on REDUSER instead of RED.com" think of it as "on REDUSER first (sometimes) then on RED.com".

BC

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I guess I am suggesting that you guys try to look at it from the end user perspective, and see where people would miss out on info and builds if they don't search the forum every day.

bk

 

[Brent Carter]

I could be all wrong, but I think the whole point is we want testing of software builds from hard core REDUSERS before we post officially on RED.com and notify everyone it is there.

BC

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Red notifies of these early beta versions the same way you notify beta versions that are on the support page: via the forum. The difference as an end user is where I have to go and how far I have to dig to get the most current version, which can take a lot of time and reading. Also, as in the case of the latest Color plugin, there is often a long lag before it appears at support, with no real feedback or changes happening that I can see.

Redcine-X v.194 is on the support page, it's early beta. Build 221 is only on the forum, also early beta... so I don't see how this isolates your testing crowd from your end users; they are really one and the same from my experience. I'd just like more clarity as to what is available from a centralized location. This wouldn't disrupt the open feedback on the software that takes place on the forum, and when I have questions or feedback, that is where I go.

I think the line between early-beta, beta and release, in so far as Red is concerned has always been blurry. Even just before it was EOL'd, Redcine was still Beta. The QT codec is and always has been beta, as are Redundead and Red Alert. That isn't a criticism, innovation and change are good, but what we use for full up commercial production is most often beta software. Early Beta, Beta, Alpha... a rose by any other name is just as sweet... or sometimes buggy.

I would consider myself a hard-core Red user, even if I am not a hard-core frequenter of reduser.net. Just suggestions... but it seems like you have your reasons for how you deploy.

Respectfully,

Brandon

 

[Brent Carter]

Red notifies of these early beta versions the same way you notify beta versions that are on the support page: via the forum.

Not true, when we post on support site - I post on REDUSER and email blast all RED ONE owners (plus whatever contacts are on the RED ONE owner's account).

I do not have anything to add other than what I posted previously in this thread. Sometimes, we post stuff on REDUSER to get initial feedback. Eventually, what we consider a release ready for public beta is posted on RED.com. Sometimes, it goes straight to RED.com.

While you obviously philosophically disagree with that methodology (and we hear your feedback, obviously, or I would not be replying), I, personally, consider what is posted on REDUSER as a sneak preview of what is coming down the pike on RED.com.

BC

 

[Deanan]

We put the test builds to reduser first to get feedback so we can make changes and fix bugs found. Once it's gotten a good amount of feed back we do the post the support page and email out to everyone. We also send out builds to a smaller group of testers and we can stick to just that group but the reduser only build posts give us valuable feedback also.

 

[Bastiaan Houtkooper]

Guys, why not make a betapage like everybody else does. (and works).
People can choose to use release builds from the 'official' support page and people interested in testing or trying to solve problems can use the beta page.
Like Brandon, I like to keep up tot date en test but the searching through endless, unmoderated threads, is not very professional and takes too much time.

 

[Brent Carter]

Note we have both beta and release builds on www.red.com/support.

BC

 

[Jeff Brown]

I agree with the original poster.

I'm wanting to test and try the redcine x builds but I'm trawling to find the download links.

Fine that it goes to Reduser first (and red.com when it's ready)but why not just have a "Beta test sofware" section in which you can put beta redcine-x / rocketcine x /qt plugin etc download links as stickies with thread links to the relevant feedback sections. All in one place makes if so much easier to check what's new.

Having that in the same vein as the Recon section (no feedback to clutter the essential bits ie. downloads) would make it so much easier to navigate.....

Cheers

 

[Jonas Rejman]

I would second that. How about a red.com/testpilots page?
Or at least a "testpilots only" forum page?

There, the alphas and early betas, experiments, etc. are for those who dare.
I mean, most of the time, the stuff works anyway...

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

Having that in the same vein as the Recon section (no feedback to clutter the essential bits ie. downloads) would make it so much easier to navigate.....

Cheers

I always find it in Jim's post here:
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=539913&postcount=11

 

[Nathan Pena]

I guess the current method of releasing early betas is working because I have been able to find and installed all the latest, but, it could be a little easier. I do like the "recon section" idea, could make it a bit easier to navigate.

-Nathan

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

So just now working with my first MX sensor based shoot. This is for a TV spot, midwest market. So I need for the first time to get the new codec (which I didn't know existed) so the proxies look correct. But where is this codec?

It's here (I think?)-> http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43841&highlight=QT+Codec+MX

...but that took 2 hours to get. I had to first search and post questions about some incorrect second hand info about no proxy support for MX, etc... before I learned there was a new codec. Then I had to search the forum to find it. And now that I found it, I can't be sure it's the most recent one. Did I get lucky with the search, or did I miss something? Was the link just on the first post of that thread, or were there updates scattered throughout the thread, or on another thread? It's guesswork on my end trying to get the right software that supports a camera upgrade.

I feel the same way about this issue as when I first started this thread, and to date i have not received any emails about beta software releases (perhaps there have been none?). Software should be about making things easier, time is money. Please, centralize your software offerings, categorize them by which sensor they work with and by alpha/beta/release version from there if that makes sense.

bk

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Most everything you guys are looking for is in the Crucial Ordnance forum. This forum is not cluttered with noise either as the only ones allowed to post there are moderators and RED people.

The new Final Cut installer that came out tonight, along with a new MX workflow whitepaper, is already mentioned there with download link, as well as in the workflow/Apple forum.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46497

When software tools get released, they go onto the RED.COM/SUPPORT page. But a lot of times beta tools get mentioned here in the forums. In general, the beta really are not meant for EVERYONE to start using, but rather for forum members who follow the development and are willing to test and offer feedback.

So far, RED team members who post updates tend to post updated versions back to the first post in the original thread where a certain line of beta releases started. For example, REDCINE-X was located in Jim's thread about the new REDCINE-X for a while. We are now on V246 and 247 of REDCINE-X. And both are linked in the first post of the thread about REDCINE-X build 246.

You guys asking for a list of current software really need to visit the Crucial Ordnance forum once in a while. There's only about 10 new threads in there since January and most are announcing a new software release or similar. The only software tool release that is not in there was the RED Color 4.0 plugin, but I guess that's not an issue now as an updated version is included in the latest FCS installer, now available.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Why post a link to v247 in a thread called v246? I've been to that thread 3 times and missed the link to 247. This is the ambiguity that I am frustrated with.

I get that Red is comfortable with the current system, you've all made that clear. I think it works well for the crowd that owns cameras and want's to test test test and are active on the forums. It seems to work well for the internal culture at Red. It does not work well for people like me who are in the trenches and have to react to any flavor of footage that comes my way... and in my case, not just my way... but anything that comes into our facility and the 4 other editors that I am technically/workflow wise responsible for.

Crucial Ordinance is not just for software so again we have to sift through threads to find links.

Bundling the Color installer with the updated codec and the white paper is great. Thank you. Bundling RCX would be even better.

Please don't mistake my persistence or perceived frustration on this issue as being obstinate or anti-reduser. I am an ardent supporter of what Red is about from an image control standpoint. It's something I have invested a lot of my time in. I wrote my own white paper that detailed workflows and shared that on this site over a year ago. I still get request for that... although it's VERY outdated now. I constantly offer support to many DP's in my area and I take a very detailed approach to the online/color correction aspect of .R3D workflow. .R3D and 4K have opened up some great possibilities for me and others.

Obviously my concerns are shared by others as this and the other thread show. If it were my company, I would want to know what my customers thought and I know you guys are listening... we'd just like you to compromise and put all alpha/beta stuff in once place. We've all suggested that this could be a place other than red.com/support... or a sub-page of it. So long as you disclaim it's test software... what difference is it where it is? To us the end users, it makes a big difference.

If that horse is beaten as Brent suggests... and the only option is to hide all alpha software from everyone... well then I can't say much more except that it's disappointing.

Respectfully,

bk

 

[Brent Carter]

If that horse is beaten as Brent suggests... and the only option is to hide all alpha software from everyone... well then I can't say much more except that it's disappointing.

Hide it all? Really, that is what I or anybody from RED said is the only option? Did I not suggest a sticky that has links to each of the most recent pre-beta test builds?

...if someone here wants to create a build sticky with builds as they are released...

Which would satisfy your later suggestion of:

we'd just like you to compromise and put all alpha/beta stuff in once place. We've all suggested that this could be a place other than red.com/support... or a sub-page of it. So long as you disclaim it's test software... what difference is it where it is? To us the end users, it makes a big difference.

Not to mention your comment of:

If it were my company, I would want to know what my customers thought and I know you guys are listening...

Check how many posts I have done - and Jarred - and Jim - and Deanan, etc. And tell me we do not listen.

In regards to this particular subject of all the alpha/pre-beta test builds, you and I said the same thing - a single thread that lists them. But you say I say to hide builds and you are disappointed? Got it. If my posts are not being read or somehow misread, time for me to take a little break from here. Maybe a little addition by subtraction....

BC

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why post a link to v247 in a thread called v246? I've been to that thread 3 times and missed the link to 247. This is the ambiguity that I am frustrated with.

How is it ambiguous? Build 221 handles all current footage. Build 246 is a pre-release update that they wanted some feedback on. Build 247 was released about 18 hours after build 246 and referenced in the same thread several times, with the link to 246 replaced on the first post. I guess I don't follow your logic here.

I get that Red is comfortable with the current system, you've all made that clear. I think it works well for the crowd that owns cameras and want's to test test test and are active on the forums. It seems to work well for the internal culture at Red. It does not work well for people like me who are in the trenches and have to react to any flavor of footage that comes my way...

Please don't take this the wrong way and there's no disrespect intend here, but based on your statement, are you sure these intermediate builds for tester feedback are really for you and your facility?

Crucial Ordinance is not just for software so again we have to sift through threads to find links.

Dude. 13 active threads this year in that forum. Count them, thirteen in a period of six months. I'm not sure what sorting needs to be done here. But from oldest to newest they are:

RED Days - Europe
RED Day
Camera Release Firmware 30.5.0
REDCINE-X 194
RED QT Codec 4.1
REDCINE-X 221
Epic-X Stage-2 Deadline
Epic Stage Clarification
Forum Security Token Issue
RED FCS Installer / Build 30 whitepaper
REDCINE-X 246 [247]
REDUSER iPhone App
REDUCATION

And when all else fails, google.com or the forum search usually has the answers. If I type REDCINE-X 247 into google, the 246/247 thread with the 247 download links comes up as the very first search result.

If that horse is beaten as Brent suggests... and the only option is to hide all alpha software from everyone... well then I can't say much more except that it's disappointing.

OK, I'll give this a try. I'll create a sticky in Crucial Ordnance that maintains all the current RED software info for release and beta versions. I'll try to remember to update it. But I probably won't update it for beta releases for at least a day or two after their release. Why? Because they are pre-release software for testing and feedback. If they are noteworthy, they are already posted as a thread in C.O. anyway. And we have already had incidents, such as the Color plugin 4.0 v1 had a big bug that a few of us pointed out and confirmed within a couple hours. Took about another day to get a v2 posted to make it fully usable. So it's good that plug-in didn't see massive download by everyone.

I'm willing to bet that even with this, people still won't be able to find the software.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, try this:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46523

 

[XiaoSu Han]

Thanks Jeff. That works.