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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

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Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences Michael. Very very interesting- and important.
 
Michael Cioni said:
Shane-
All of the grading is taking place on the big screen. 100% of it will be done on the 40' x 20' display screen. We will do the digital master grading first, followed by the trim pass for the 35mm print.
m
Click to expand...

Hi Michael,

What's a trim pass? Is it tweaks to accommodate the differences in how things look when printed to film?

Also, not that what I'm doing is even remotley as cool as what's happening with TSN, but for my feature, my editor and I managed our own edit, then took a "conformed" 1080 FCP timeline through a Pablo for the grade. It was great that we could manage the project completely on our own, and then get a great colourist for the final look. Easy Peasy.
 
Hi Chris-
Yes, a "trim pass" is necessary for different translations between the various forms of distributions. This can include film, DCPs, HD broadcast, and standard definition masters.

Your workflow for your film is a great one. We use it many times on feature films and I am a big fan of independent films that do their own work in FCP or Avid and then deliver each reel for final grading to happen in a DI suite. In fact, what Graeme Nattress has developed in the recent release of Build 30 color science is optimized for this type of workflow. By using the gamma space of RED Gamma, independents can easily use RED Rockets to create offline files with a full debayer and the RED Gamma will preserve the shadow detail making for an optimal situation for final grading.
When you want to save the cost of reconforming and put more money on the screen and are willing to sacrifice some of the control of RED R3Ds for a 1080 finish, there is no better way to prepare for a great DI giving the colorist a lot to work with.
m
 
Michael Cioni said:
Hi Chris-
Yes, a "trim pass" is necessary for different translations between the various forms of distributions. This can include film, DCPs, HD broadcast, and standard definition masters.
Click to expand...

Not always "necessary." More often than not, desirable.

By using the gamma space of RED Gamma, independents can easily use RED Rockets to create offline files with a full debayer and the RED Gamma will preserve the shadow detail making for an optimal situation for final grading.
Click to expand...

I know all of the theory behind RedGamma, but the reality has been that it yields images that still have the mid/high end pushed too far in many cases. I'm currently grading two very different television series every week, both directly from R3d files. One one, I use RedGamma, primarily because they want it very bright and colorful, and that's what RedGamma/Redcolor gets you. The other is much moodier, and for that I use the Rec709 gamma curve precisely because it doesn't force the high/mid values higher, it lets faces look better, and it doesn't present me with blown out highlight areas unless they were photographed that way. The notion that one should always use RedGamma is a bit simplistic, does not always yield the best results, and cannot be "undone." That's why there are other choices available.
 
Michael Cioni said:
And with the DI, the DCDM, and the DCP being done on the RED Studios lot, nearly all of the digital components of this film will have been achieved without reliance on a traditional laboratory infrastructure. The "post house" we brought to RED Studios is merely a 3' tall road case with a Pablo 4K in it, some SDI cable running to a scope and a projector, and a Mac Mini for iTunes.
Click to expand...

Micheal thanks for sharing some tid-bits of TSN DI/Post. Its not to often that CEOs share what happening while its happening:)

Are you able to get your GenePool into 1 case as well or is that off-site at Li?

Looking forward to seeing it in action.

Thanks for the sharing,
 
Michael Cioni said:
Hi Chris-
Yes, a "trim pass" is necessary for different translations between the various forms of distributions. This can include film, DCPs, HD broadcast, and standard definition masters.

Your workflow for your film is a great one. We use it many times on feature films and I am a big fan of independent films that do their own work in FCP or Avid and then deliver each reel for final grading to happen in a DI suite. In fact, what Graeme Nattress has developed in the recent release of Build 30 color science is optimized for this type of workflow. By using the gamma space of RED Gamma, independents can easily use RED Rockets to create offline files with a full debayer and the RED Gamma will preserve the shadow detail making for an optimal situation for final grading.
When you want to save the cost of reconforming and put more money on the screen and are willing to sacrifice some of the control of RED R3Ds for a 1080 finish, there is no better way to prepare for a great DI giving the colorist a lot to work with.
m
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael,

I appreciate you taking the time.

Yes, managing gamma is certainly an issue. I know that we'll be printing to HDcamSR, but I'll also get a digital file back--format of my choosing. I do worry that the digital file, say if it's a ProRes 444 uncompressed, could have gamma issues when compared to the tape. Especially if I want to do my DVD & BlueRay from the digital file.

Any advice on how to work through that. What digital file should I get back. And then pumping that file through Disc encoding?

Thanks again!
 
Dane-
Quantel Gene Pool is actually just software, allowing one to network multiple Pablo/iQ systems together. So it doesn't take up any space, aside from the linear increase in physical space by adding in a second Pablo or iQ CPU and drives. For TSN, we only require 1 Pablo system, which stands alone in a corner of the stage, pretty much invisible and inaudible by anyone in the room. In fact, when people come in for tours, I point it out them so they can see there is almost no physical impact to mobilizing a modern DI system in an existing theater. It would be easy to create an offsite Gene Pool setup, you just need 20RU for each system, including a UPS.

Chris-
Remember, ProRes and uncompressed are two different file types, but in the case you are discussing, they will look identical if created correctly. For an HDcam SR finish in 444, RED Gamma is a solid choice starting point for the source material. If graded in 709, SMPTE, your SR will work perfectly. From there, in cases where the SR is then used to create digital files for recompression to various formats, I recommend having it captured from the tape as ProRes 422 (this using the Format Convert option out of the SR VTR). This will give you an easy, and more important accurate transform to similar specs in which it will be distributed on BluRay, DVD, mobile devices, and the web.
Many Quicktime components, including Final Cut Pro, have trouble with maintaining the same gamma presentation in 444, whereas the deck does not. For good, fast, and cheap conversion from 444 to 422, use the deck FC OUT and capture as ProRes HQ. Then compress your heart out.
m
 
Michael Cioni said:
...
Chris-
Remember, ProRes and uncompressed are two different file types, but in the case you are discussing, they will look identical if created correctly. For an HDcam SR finish in 444, RED Gamma is a solid choice starting point for the source material. If graded in 709, SMPTE, your SR will work perfectly. From there, in cases where the SR is then used to create digital files for recompression to various formats, I recommend having it captured from the tape as ProRes 422 (this using the Format Convert option out of the SR VTR). This will give you an easy, and more important accurate transform to similar specs in which it will be distributed on BluRay, DVD, mobile devices, and the web.
Many Quicktime components, including Final Cut Pro, have trouble with maintaining the same gamma presentation in 444, whereas the deck does not. For good, fast, and cheap conversion from 444 to 422, use the deck FC OUT and capture as ProRes HQ. Then compress your heart out.
m
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael. Your help is great and very timely. (and I know you must be busy) We're almost done the grade and hope to print to tape this coming week.

If I pull the 422 Prores from the tape/deck out, I'll end up with a QT digital file (obviously) but then in the short term I'll likely use Compressor for the various disc conversions; so a couple more quick questions;

Does Compressor suffer the gamma handling issue? (doesn't it just use the QT engine)

Should I really be looking for a better encoding solution then Compressor? If so, any recommendations? Something hardware based?

Thanks again for the help.
 
Chris-
Compressor can do a great job - just check the output result from your compression and compare it to the source. Then you know you've got all your levels correct prior to burning a bunch of copies.
m
 
Footage looks really good in the full theatrical trailer. RED BABY! I am also really excited about the film as a whole, it actually looks really good. I was not sure at first but now I have more confidence :)
 
Saw this last night in front of Inception and it looked great. Lots of really low light scenes featured and it all turned out really well.
 
God that music is gorgeous. I know this is a complete hijack but where can I find the choral/piano version of Creep? What a MOVIE!!! Thanks Red. Thanks Fincher. This is going to be huge. For Fincher. For RED. Fincher MX!
 
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