Simple Red to film on the fly job...

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi,

we recently shot a quick commercial for a client that was made for theatrical screenings, y'know, those ads after the trailers before the film...

Of course, we shot on Red with our camera, but we had never done a direct to film job with it before.

The deadline was scary, 1 week between original client panic briefing meeting and delivery to the lab. No concept whatsoever...

The lab had given us their image format and ratio requirements for the transfer and that's all they needed: 16bit TIFF sequence, 2K 2048x1080, and a Dolby track...

So we shot 4K, 2:1, cut on a MB Pro laptop with FCP (L&T), cropped to format and rendered in 2K the shots we needed with Redcine because Crimson never works (sorry Ian), then re-edited the 2K renders in a new FCP project matching the original L&T edit, CGd with a little Magic Bullet (sooo cool thank you thank you thank you!!!) and exported a TIFF sequence directly from FCP...

We just trusted our eyes, simply color grading it to what we liked on the laptop screen, just like that...

We put the TIFF sequence in a directory on a USB key and shipped the key to the lab.

We never heard from the lab until the test screening. The result was stunning and the lab people were amazed by the ease, the job speed (no tapes, digitizing, etc...) and of course, the footage...

What struck me first, was that what I saw on the huge theater screen was exactly what I saw on my laptop, period.

My opinion on this? I am very grateful and happy I had this experience since this is what I had in mind when I bought the camera, and that is very much what Red or other happy owners are boasting about all the time. Well it is simply true.

No one, including ourselves and especially the client, ever believed that we could pull that job, nevermind at that level of quality and speed, and on a budget, with a crew of 5.

We since did another job for that client and we're shooting another commercial for them at the end of the summer.

Thanks Red, and thanks to all the Redusers I pretty much learned from throughout the past years. I could have never been this confident without Reduser.

I'm in a new "Red life" step or level now :smile:... I am now passed all the insecurity around the tech stuff, and trust me, I'm not a tech guy at all, and now I simply trust the camera and let it do it's job. No need to push too many buttons. From now on, it's all in the eyes. Just the eyes. Trust your eyes. That's all you need to know.

You can see the commercial here: it's no big deal but it was shot in 2 days, with a crew of 5, 2 actor friends and my kids, all improvised:
http://vimeo.com/5269134

EDIT: I forgot to mention how cool it was to sit in a theater shortly after, waiting to see Ice Age 3 with my kids and friends, and to get slapped in the face by our ad on a gigantic screen, in front of a packed audience... my daughter's face was priceless! I think my kids will never forget that moment... :smile:

 

[Vigen Vartanov]

Nice Job . Congratulations.
First of all , i like your job , sow don not thing that i have
problems with it . Just want to share my experiences with it .
Also want to comment some thing about Film Out . Trust me it is not
sow easy as you thing. For short commercial with same light same
exterior it will be ok. Also don not forget that you can not stop
projecting on 1 frame and check exactly difference .
Problem is that you need to have calibrate monitor with Lab . Even
load LUT of film in software that you are planing to print .
Printing on film from Digital is old story . All huge productions are
digital , everybody scan film and everybody prints from Digital for
minimum 10 years .
You can get CineSpace software that can help you to calibrate your
monitor with Lab where you are printing . It will do minimum job , and
will protect you .

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi Vigen and thanks,

of course, my "story" or better yet, "anecdote", was not a tutorial and didn't imply in anyway that everyone should work like that. It was merely a concrete example of how reliable the camera and workflow was, in my experience and opinion.

I would never recommend to follow this way, too simple and risky, for any big studio or agency job with huge budgets at stake. There are better ways to insure better results, as everyone knows. We're also working on much more high end narrative projects that will have serious post, CG and lab work.

I just wanted to share a short and quick completed experience, from A to Z, from shooting to theatrical screening that was done in a few days and on a, believe me, ridiculous budget, little lights, few people, etc...

I was just amazed by the ease and the result, without any science, so were other people involved, and in that sense, I wanted to state just how good the Red holds its promises.

I've heard a lot of terrible post stories (this forum alone has thousands) but our experience was a great one I thought also deserved to be told.

And for the more indie scene, this example is also a great solid and reassuring statement about the camera and the capabilities.

I'm in no way neglecting the quality and importance of good post and lab work, and the involved talents, on the contrary, and this job is certainly not the best ever, but it worked and everyone is happy, which was the whole deal.

I just hope this little experience will make some people be less freaked out about working with a Red, the post, the result, etc...

It's a fantastic camera and I have a proof of it for myself...

 

[Troy Smith]

exporting tiffs out of fcp would be 8 bit tiffs, makes the story even better, luv to hear these type stories,

obin did his film out from cs4 with 8 bit tiffs as well i believe, said it also looked great on the big screen.

Great stuff.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Great stuff, Lewis - that's what it's all about, and you proved it!

 

[gbalaji]

Lewis,

Great Work. It would be great if you would have moved your project to After Effects CS4 and done the CC using your loved MB. You would get more control over the R3d rather than working on QT wrapped R3D in FCP.

Anyway, Good Job. At the end of the day you completed the job and everyone is happy including your client, which is more important than any other thing.

Keep posting your work experience, which will make the red users more comfortable.

 

[D Fuller]

Nice work, Lewis. I'm soon to shoot a bit of footage at an amusement park myself, and I especially like the off-speed stuff. Is the water ride shot at 3-K or 2-K? Or is the speed ramp done in post?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Edit projector

Edit projector

Also don not forget that you can not stop
projecting on 1 frame and check exactly difference .

We have an interlock DeVry 35mm movie projector that was modified by Kodak it seems and it has a heat filter for single frame projection, so we can view single frames from our test strips (or stop on a single frame or project in reverse or at vari-speed), you can modify a film strip projector with filters to match theatre projectors to get the same sort of tool, you grade some frames send it out for a test strip and then project it side by side with your monitor to see if your monitor is matching the film recorder.

That is not my idea, I saw film strip projectors being used at a major "Hollywood" optical house to match filmout to a monitor. They had a small screen the same size as the monitor right next to it, you ND the white level and get a side by side to look at.

For my system, in your DIY film recorder I go the other way, I match the film recorder to my grading monitor, then everything goes one light onto the film, much easer to know that you can use the monitor for the adjustments rather than making many test strips once the film recorder software (DANCINEL.EXE (tm)) is adjusted.

8 bit frames of GRADED 12bit footage can look OK in a filmout because of the blur in the projection lens 4 or more pixels blend so you get what looks like 9 or 10 bits on the screen at 24fps. Its better to use 16bit TIF but they take twice the disk space.

Things are not so hard to do, I have not had major problems editing and outputting RED ONE footage with my programs, because my workflow is desigined to be "bullet proof", maybe not the fastest, but what good is fast if you end up needing to re-do everything?

If your TIF output frames are at "video gamma" you do need to know what gamma the film recorder is matched to, TV standard is about gamma 2.2 to 2.22, but un-compensated computer monitors can be gamma 2.4, not much different but you will get a slight mid-tone lighten or darken in the filmout.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Okay eeehr... You lost me there Dan! :smiley: Like I said, I'm not a tech person... But I'm sure you know better...

I can't remember if my Tiffs were 8 or 16 bits...

Is the water ride shot at 3-K or 2-K? Or is the speed ramp done in post?

It was shot at 2K/120fps with the 300mm lens (for the record, all the shots were made with my own Red lenses, either the 300mm or the 18-50mm)... So the ramp was indeed done in post, yes. I made it look in post to be 24fps so when the actual slomo kicks in, it makes a nice John Woo effect... This was the only 2K shot in the film. Which still looked amazing on the big screen... I didn't want to shoot 3K since I read too many issues on the forum where 3K had issues matching 4K and 2K in editing for some reason... I need to look more into that...

It would be great if you would have moved your project to After Effects CS4 and done the CC using your loved MB. You would get more control over the R3d rather than working on QT wrapped R3D in FCP.

I actually didn't worked wrapped QTs in FCP in my final edit. Like I said, after cutting it first with wrapped QTs (wia L&T, not proxies), my attempt to get final 2K renders from Redcine back in FCP via Crimson didn't work. So instead, I opened all my shots, only the ones that were selected in the final edit, in Redcine. I punched ins and outs slightly over to allow handles flexibility for dissolves and stuff, I rendered those fully in 2K sizes to match my final format for the lab (rendering 3sec shots is really quick!), then I created a new FCP projects with the new full rez 2Ks, and recut the whole thing. So I actually worked on a full rez 2K project, not wrapped QTs. And those are the shots I CCd with my loved Magic Bullet...

So in the end, I had a full quality 2K project that was ready to export as Tiffs...

The original footage was already great I admit, and I wish I had more time to CC it properly, but in the end, we decided to give it a romantic family tone in the first part, then a "westerny" Sergio Leone look in the second parts on certain shots, blasting it into loud whites to accentuate the desert and heat feel. Of course, it had to look like the weather was amazing, and on some shots we filmed, it was raining... Glad no one noticed... :smilewinkgrin:

Like gbalaji pointed out, at the end of the day we did the job and everyone was happy... We can always do better, and I'm a real perfectionnist, but eventually, being simply satisfied ain't too bad either...

Although the result would have probably been better, this experience certainly made me feel less depressed not to be able to afford a Scratch station...:emote_happyhappy:

(Oh and thanks for all the kind words!)

 

[drivinhard]

We recently shot a project in 4k that is being released on DVD, but we are going to do some screenings and "premiere" showings at a handful of theaters.

Looking to do similar but I have zero experience with such.

What's the approx cost for this (our program is approx 20 min), and is there a standard format for any theater to accept? thanks!

 

[Paul Arrojado]

So we shot 4K, 2:1, cut on a MB Pro laptop with FCP (L&T), cropped to format and rendered in 2K the shots we needed with Redcine because Crimson never works (sorry Ian), then re-edited the 2K renders in a new FCP project matching the original L&T edit, CGd with a little Magic Bullet (sooo cool thank you thank you thank you!!!) and exported a TIFF sequence directly from FCP...

May I ask.. what settings did you use in FCP for editing?! what codec? timeline settings? export settings..

thanks!

 

[jimhare]

Rather than doing a film out, which would be pretty expensive, you are better off using digital projection, either off laptop or BluRay.

Either use the inhouse system (if they have one) or hire a nice projector.

We recently shot a project in 4k that is being released on DVD, but we are going to do some screenings and "premiere" showings at a handful of theaters.

Looking to do similar but I have zero experience with such.

What's the approx cost for this (our program is approx 20 min), and is there a standard format for any theater to accept? thanks!

 

[alexwhitmer]

EDIT: I forgot to mention how cool it was to sit in a theater shortly after, waiting to see Ice Age 3 with my kids and friends, and to get slapped in the face by our ad on a gigantic screen, in front of a packed audience... my daughter's face was priceless! I think my kids will never forget that moment... :smile:

And hence on reason we do what we do. Those priceless seconds when, for one reason or another, it resonates.

Great story. Thanks for sharing.

alex

www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

May I ask.. what settings did you use in FCP for editing?! what codec? timeline settings? export settings..

I can't remember, all I know is we ingested our needed shots in 2K renders from REDcine, cut in 2K at 24fps, and exported tiffs... Codec must have been Prores or Reds own or something?... All I remember it was pretty simple, we didn't bother much with tech stuff... And the result was beautiful...