Shutterless option? 1/24 not enough

[JD Holloway]

Quick question.
Can RED effectively go "shutterless"?
I have a project that would benefit from this.

How about frame addition?

J.

 

[Deanan]

At 24fps that's essentially what 1/24th is. Until we have the flux capacitor upgrade board...

 

[JD Holloway]

Ok so no "shutter off" option.
It "is" off technically

Thanks Deanan.

Hopefully flux cap board will incorporate Memristors for instant start up!

 

[Martin Weiss]

Just a theoretical question: Couldn't it be possible to get a 720 degree shutter by adding half of the previous and next frame's exposure?

Would that be feasible?

I am trying to figure out in my head what it would look like in motion.

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Just a theoretical question: Couldn't it be possible to get a 720 degree shutter by adding half of the previous and next frame's exposure?

Would that be feasible?

I am trying to figure out in my head what it would look like in motion.

thinking about it is making my head hurt, but I'd assume that would be impossible. at 24 frames a second, 1/24 means open all the time, right? and how would you incorporate the NEXT frame when it hasn't happened yet?

I do think it would be cool to have longer shutter options for timelaps stuff though.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I want the shutter to be open way longer than 1/24. Like anywhere from 1/2 sec to 10 sec. Now that would be great.

 

[Carl Larsen]

I bet they can make it can happen in camera - similar to the EX1's slow shutter frame accumulation mode, but the result is very stacatto for anything but timelapse work. It is, however, very cool for timelapses! Streaky cars, star lapses, etc.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

But Deanan, if you're doing timelapse shots, can you use a longer shutter than 1/24th ?
Like 1 second for example ?
Will that be possible in the future ?

Nils.

 

[Martin Weiss]

how would you incorporate the NEXT frame when it hasn't happened yet?

Since it's all digital, couldn't you write it to a local buffer and then write it once it has happened? They can delay the Chinese Olympic games by a couple of seconds, so you could surely delay one frame inside a Red.

So, frame 1 would be underexposed, frame 2 would consist of 50% from frame 1, 100% from frame 2 and 50% from frame 3 - once that is ready. Frame 3 again would take 50% from the buffered frame 2, 100% from frame 3 and 50% from frame 4. Now Frame 2 could be written to the CF.
And so on. Once you push the stop button, one last frame is written to the CF.

Or like this:
Buffer 1: Frame 1
Buffer 2: Frame 2
Buffer 3: Frame 3
Write Frame 1 with 50% Buffer 1, 100% Buffer 2, 50% Buffer 3
Buffer 1: Frame 4
Write Frame 2 with 50% Buffer 2, 100% Buffer 3, 50% Buffer 1
Buffer 2: Frame 5
Write Frame 3 with 50% Buffer 3, 100% Buffer 1, 50% Buffer 2
...
...
...
Buffer 1: Frame 4783
Buffer 2: Frame 4784
Buffer 3: Frame 4785
-push stop-
Write frame 4783 with 50% Buffer 1, 100% Buffer 2, 50% Buffer 3
Buffer 1: Frame 4786
Write Frame 4784 with 50% Buffer 2, 100% Buffer 3, 50% Buffer 1



As said, this is all theoretical. (But shouldn't it be possible to try this out when shooting with 48 frames, and then adding them in post into a 24 frame project?) But I think it might be worth exploring; maybe a way to go beyond the ISO 1000/3200 - or maybe just to get a new "cool" effect for pop promos.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

33% 33% 33%

33% 33% 33%

But I think it might be worth exploring; maybe a way to go beyond the ISO 1000/3200 - or maybe just to get a new "cool" effect for pop promos.

I have been thinking of adding 50+100+50% (25%+50%+25% to total 100% in the result frame) and some other filters for low light, but do not have that in yet, might be better to shape the 50s with more in the dark areas.

Right now you can do a 33%+33%+33% with my FUSE option of the Kinema Insert command, if you duplicate the input frame set and offset starting one group on frame 1, another on 2, and another on 3 (making up the lost frames at the end with dups). Then tell the FUSE command there are 3 tricolor frames in the group to fuse.

You may need to use a macro to do the file shuffling and renaming to get the input set right. You might be able to shift the gamma of the three sets of the same files to give the "middle" file more of a share of the output.

If someone wants to try this let me know by PM.

 

[Carl Larsen]

Since red is essentially a sequential DSLR, I think the ability to record long exposures like this would especially cool. 1 sec, 2 sec, 5 sec, incremental would be super sweet.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Couldnt you do a quick 100+100+100% version? That would give a 1080 degree shutter and an idea to what motion would look like.

Do you have any examples of the 33/33/33% as a video?

Thanks!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You can have 1 sec in syncro mode

 

[Steve White]

As mentioned above, you can do the 1080 shutter. You can whip it up in post by shooting 24 fps at 1/24, making 3 copies of the video in a timeline, shifting them each 1 frame, and combining them all at 33% opacity in "add" mode.

In order to get proper mixing of the colours, be sure to use linear colour blending - otherwise you may get incorrect results and clipping.

 

[Carl Larsen]

spiff - that's great trick. Simple and effective.

Of course, it only really works best with footage originating at 1/24th otherwise the banding gets noticed.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[JD Holloway]

WOW,

this thread should be re-labled and my lame first question removed and the rest retitled. This is rather interesting.
I cant imagine this is any use except for high iso photography.
3 copies of "nothing" is still nothing? (black detail)
I would love to see the effect though.

 

[Uli Plank]

Yes, you can use this for high-ISO photography! It's called integration over time, works for stills only (or will give strange 'ghosts' of moving objects).

You use a lot of single stills shot from sticks, sum them up in linear space and high precision and normalize them again to regular image space. Since noise is a random event over time, while your image content is not (if it doesn't move), you get very clean shots in the dark.

We've been doing it with software like Blender from Dragonfly, Videoscript or Time Lapse from Buena Software, don't know if any of these is still around.

BTW, NASA has been doing something similar for decades for images from deep space, albeit for another reason: transmission noise.

Regards,

Uli

 

[Steve White]

You could do 2 frames at 50% opacity as well to get a 720 shutter. In order to sync up sound, you would want to shift it back 1/2 a frame. Again the linear colour space is very very important.

As for "ghosting" I'm not sure if that's the right word. Often ghosting refers to a similar effect, but due to a non 360 shutter results in discrete images. You will obviously end up with some appearance of lag.

 

[Jarred Land]

WOW,

this thread should be relabled and my lame first question removed and the rest retitled. This is rather interesting.
I cant imagine this is any use for high iso photography.
3 copies of "nothing" is still nothing. (black detail)
I would love to see the effect though.

post of the day. Congratulations.

 

[JD Holloway]

Quietly moves to dark corner...