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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shutter Speed

PS. (little bit off topic)

Maybe it's just me, but I can't at all understand the willingness to publish all these ideas of changes to the RED ONE. All these "will-be`s" and "won`t be`s" and "what-if`s you could change`s" (quotation Kalone) really annoys me.

Loads of ideas such optical EVFs, rotating shutters and now degrees - all adapted from old school cinematography - have been pushed lately on the forum. For myself which come from the digital still side, "and REDs technology is closely related to DSLR" (quotation Gibby), these ideas is just plain strange and conservative!

Red is the shit, film is dead. Rethink guys, think DIGITAL!!!!
 
For 24fps shooting under 50hz lighting one needs a shutter angle of 172.8 degrees.

Shutter angles are complicated and prone to mistakes. I find it easier to think of 24 fps and 1/50. There is no need for shutter angles in a digital camera.

Not all in filmland is worth to be kept. Keep things simple.

Hans
 
Jonas Nyström said:
PS. (little bit off topic)
Loads of ideas such optical EVFs, rotating shutters and now degrees - all adapted from old school cinematography - have been pushed lately on the forum. For myself which come from the digital still side, "and REDs technology is closely related to DSLR" (quotation Gibby), these ideas is just plain strange and conservative!
!
Click to expand...

DSLRs still have optical viewfinders. There is no reason not to mix and match old and new technology.
 
Ramping, Time-lapse & Shutter

Ramping, Time-lapse & Shutter

I was embarrassed to ask this question as it has newbie all over it, but can someone explain to me what the cameras abilities-limitations are in maintaining a set exposure over the course of a speed ramp? The various shutter modes are still a bit of a mystery to me. I come from a 435 ES background where you were limited by 2 things. The mechanical limitations of how fast the electronic shutter could open or close over a set period of time, as well as the exposure limitations of having an 11-180 degree shutter angle capability.Recently I had my Red showing a 360 degree shutter angle which made me think "Isn't that just a hole in the camera at that point?" I know there's no physical shutter, but still relating things to a film camera makes that a bit unnerving. Is there any equivalent to "auto iris" for exposure compensation on long term time-lapse shots? I love being able to leave an HVX200 setup on auto iris, and just letting it run for a day (or more). Makes for nice exposures on every frame when shooting a neutral background in a generally northerly direction.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
 
Shutter Speed

davecw said:
I'm confused between normal & relative shutter modes. If I'm right one of the modes automatically adjusts the shutter speed when you change frame rate to maintain the same exposure time where possible - is this the relative mode? I don't like the sound of the camera not displaying what its "real" shutter speed is. Maybe there could be a separate display of what your absolute "exposure time" is (no matter what settings, frame rates and shutter speeds have been selected - it's a pretty simple calculation/equation, but one you haven't always got time to do in the field...I need a calculator for that too!) I think a lot of people would find this handy for making sure they're in synch with lights etc no matter what frame rate & shutter speed/angle combo they've got going on.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what the camera does - report it's exact speed under all circumstances - in 1/xx sec or degrees format, your choice. (Build 15 V2.2.5)

The Operations Guide describes all the Shutter mode options, its available for download from www.red.com/support
 
Stuart English said:
That is exactly what the camera does - report it's exact speed under all circumstances - in 1/xx sec or degrees format, your choice. (Build 15 V2.2.5)

The Operations Guide describes all the Shutter mode options, its available for download from www.red.com/support
Click to expand...

Barry Green said:
Whether you want degrees or not, it's just seems counterproductive (if not plain silly) for the camera to report 1/48 when the actual exposure time is not, in fact, 1/48 (and that's what happens in the 'relative'" mode).
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I've obviously got a little confused by this thread. Where you say the "camera reports its exact speed under all circumstances" what do you mean by "speed"? Do you mean exposure time? Does that mean Barry's post about the relative mode is wrong?

I know this must be getting exasperating for you to continually explain but I think that's because it's actually not very clearly explained in the manual (thanks for the link by the way but obviously as a Red owner I've read the manual :wink:). In fact it's the one issue that a lot of people seem to be having trouble getting their heads round (if you do a search for "shutter" and read all the posts - mass confusion. This has to be for a reason, not because everyone's a little slow but because it's not very clearly explained...sorry again, don't want to offend :waaa:)
 
Shutter Speed

davecw said:
I'm sorry, I've obviously got a little confused by this thread. Where you say the "camera reports its exact speed under all circumstances" what do you mean by "speed"? Do you mean exposure time? Does that mean Barry's post about the relative mode is wrong?
Click to expand...

Barry's post does not reflect the current status. It used to be the camera reported the shutter speed that was requested, now it reports the actual shutter speed.

If the manual is not clear, I'd like to know which elements are unclear and I'll fix that.
 
I think it's quite clear in the manual for build 15. At first I was reading earlier build manual, therefore some confusion (sorry). Maybe we should point out to all (including me) - always read the latest manual.
 
Jonas can you really look at David Mullen´s site and say film is dead?:)

Its like saying beautiful blondes are "passé" - you know they are a hazzle but theyre so damn beautiful.

-P.S not meant as an insult or argument:)
 
Jonas Nyström said:
IS IT? Sorry, but I beg do differ! What are your assumption based on?

Can't understand why RED should use old nomenclature, which in fact, NOT AT ALL, has anything to do with technique in the camera? And if there is a digital standard, why should people like me, do a "request" for the present?

I'm not alone on this one: "I don't see the point of using degrees in a camera without a mechanical shutter other than you know it's compensating when you select different frame rates." quotation from David Mullen, ASC, post!

(cool locationshots on your site!)
Click to expand...

I think he is saying that when he works with the camera more people ask for exposure in degrees than ask for it in exposure time.

I think it is great there in an option to use shutter angle because many people think in those terms and find that easier. What harm does it do you? No one is asking for the absolute shutter time option to be removed.

As mentioned earlier, there wasn't a shutter angle option when this thread started which might cause some confusion.
 
Sidney said:
Jonas can you really look at David Mullen´s site and say film is dead?:)

Its like saying beautiful blondes are "passé" - you know they are a hazzle but theyre so damn beautiful.

-P.S not meant as an insult or argument:)
Click to expand...

Sorry, it was exaggerated expressed, more kind of a manifest. My point, is though, I don't see the point to adapt "old" technique and nomenclature in a revulotionary digital camera.

Mullen are one of the best DPs, and he will continue to do awesome work with or without "film".
 
angles/shutter speeds question

angles/shutter speeds question

So, I've read through this thread a couple of times and have some confusion... partly from the fact that its been a long time since I was a camera operator and had to think these things through... so I hope someone can set me clear!

We did a pyro shoot (flame bars) for some vfx elements, set project rate at 24fps, 180deg angle (1/48th) on 3k 2:1 (Bld 16), knowing that we wanted to run at 48fps.
Selected Varispeed and "Relative" mode, and 48fps (90 deg shutter), then:
a) changed shutter angle to 180 deg (from 90 deg), and ran several clips at T16, details on LCD showed 180 deg shutter
b) changed shutter angle back to 90 deg, and ran several clips at T11.
Used histogram in both cases to make sure we didn't clip highlight detail in the flames.

Checking the metadata in RedCine, shows clips in a) at 90 deg shutter (1/96th), and clips in b) at 45 deg shutter (1/193rd), as though we hadn't altered the shutter angle at all....?

So, has "relative" mode just over-ridden our shutter selection to maintain exposure, even though I'm certain the LCD showed us 180deg in setup a) ? :blink:

Chris
 
It's quite hard to know what you mean as you say you set it to 180 then 90 then at a) you say 180.

a) 180 at 48fps should yield 1/96th. That isn't 90 degrees, it is 180 degrees at 48fps as the shutter time is relative to the frame rate.

b)90 at 48fps should yield 1/192th.

I don't really get what you are saying as the RedCine metadata seems to be reporting the correct exposure time for your settings. You also say that it was as if you hadn't altered the shutter at all, but your exposure time has changed to match the shutter you input.
 
Irri said:
It's quite hard to know what you mean as you say you set it to 180 then 90 then at a) you say 180.

a) 180 at 48fps should yield 1/96th. That isn't 90 degrees, it is 180 degrees at 48fps as the shutter time is relative to the frame rate.

b)90 at 48fps should yield 1/192th.

I don't really get what you are saying as the RedCine metadata seems to be reporting the correct exposure time for your settings. You also say that it was as if you hadn't altered the shutter at all, but your exposure time has changed to match the shutter you input.
Click to expand...
I am confused... :usd: and not meaning to confuse you with the question....

I'll try to clarify:
proj set at 24fps, nominal exp at 180 deg shutter was 1/48th at T22
From my notes, we shot at (taken from the LCD screen at the moment)
a) 48fps 180 deg T16.. (the r3d Metadata reports it as 90deg (1/96))
b) 48fps 90 deg T11.. (the r3d Metadata reports it as 45deg (1/193))

which means we got the frame rate we wanted, but not the motion blur characteristics.... was the LCD lying to me?

From what I can tell, it should be possible to shoot 48fps 180 deg shutter, or is that not right?

c.
 
I think I see what you mean.

When you say "the meta data reports it as 90deg (1/96)" does it say both 90deg and 1/96?

For a) 1/96 is correct. 90 deg is wrong.
If you shot 48fps with an exposure time of 1/96th then you had a 180deg shutter.

For b) 1/193 is correct. 45 degree is wrong.
If you shot 48fps with a 90deg shutter you will have an exposure time of 1/193.

Exposure time is is an absolute thing. The camera will expose the frame for a certain amount of time. Using shutter angle is relative. It's related to the frame rate. e.g.

Base setting of 24fps
If you set the camera to 180deg you will have 1/48th of a sec exposure time. If you set the camera to 1/48th of a sec then you have 180deg shutter. They are linked and locked to each other.

If you are shooting 48fps and you set the camera to 180deg then you have 1/96th sec exposure time. That is locked. The degrees system is just another way of expressing exposure time that is used by film people.

If you want to shoot at 180 degrees, the exposure time will always 1/2 your fps so 48fps = 1/96th of a second.
 
cws said:
which means we got the frame rate we wanted, but not the motion blur characteristics.... was the LCD lying to me?

From what I can tell, it should be possible to shoot 48fps 180 deg shutter, or is that not right?

c.
Click to expand...

If the shutter is spinning 48 times a second at 360 degree shutter, you will get the same motion blur as 1/24th at 180deg shutter. Motion blur is related to exposure time and if the shutter is spinning twice as fast for 48 fps, then 180 degrees will be open shutter for half the time (or 1/96th sec).
 
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