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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shutter Speed

David Mullen ASC said:
What SD cameras listed shutter settings in degrees of shutter angle rather than time or hertz?
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The HVX and I believe the new iteration of the DVX100 has it as well although I could be wrong about that one...
 
Stuart English said:
No question, and that issue is being addressed. Same reporting issue if you select SYNCRO shutter mode.
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That's great.

By the way, I like the way fps goes yellow when you are off speed. Colour is great way to make things instantly obvious. Even if the camera is reporting a relative shutter speed, a colour change is enough to let you know.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
What SD cameras listed shutter settings in degrees of shutter angle rather than time or hertz?
Click to expand...
HVX200 and HPX500 when in "FILM CAM" mode report shutter angle in a range of 10 to 350 degrees (on the HPX500 it's up to 360 degrees) in 0.5-degree increments.

And the Sony EX1 has some shutter angle settings, I believe it offers 180, 90, 45 and 22.5.

I'm not saying we "need" to see shutter angles, I definitely agree that knowing the actual exposure time is more valuable. But what we do need, and Stuart has agreed, is actual factual reporting of that exposure time. And we also need some intelligent way of discerning relative exposure times that will change with the frame rate. Shutter angle is an obvious way to do that; do you have other suggestions?
 
Irri said:
By the way, I like the way fps goes yellow when you are off speed. Colour is great way to make things instantly obvious. Even if the camera is reporting a relative shutter speed, a colour change is enough to let you know.
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Yes, yellow is very good, it lets us know it's in an "off speed" mode and that audio won't be recorded. Combine that with actual reporting of the shutter speed that's currently being employed and we're at a functional point; the only question then would be: what's the best user interface for inputting the "relative" shutter you want?
 
Dont worry guys.. we are listening.
 
Barry Green said:
Why not just use the same nomenclature used by other manufacturers? Sony and Panasonic both use "degrees" to reference a frame-rate-dependent film-style shutter, and "fractions" to reference a fixed shutter speed (regardless of frame rate).

So if you set an EX1 or HVX to 180 degrees, you know that you're going to get 1/48 at 24fps or 1/60 at 30fps, and regardless of what frame rate you select you're going to get the proper film-style exposure.

If you set to 1/48 you know you're going to get 1/48 of a second exposure, regardless of the frame rate.

Wouldn't that be less confusing?
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good idea!
 
Programming in 1/xx and Degrees formats

Programming in 1/xx and Degrees formats

Not arguing against any of the ideas outlined above, just pointing out how things currently work, and continuing to gather feedback.

If you change Project Frame Rate the camera automatically selects half the frame time - 24 - 1/48, 25 - 1/50, 30 - 1/60 etc if you will thats equal to 180 degrees. Varispeed and Ramps automatically maintain constant exposure unless you select RELATIVE, in which case it automatically emulates a fixed angle. (I acknowledge that the 1/xx report back in the GUI in these modes is not yet as functional as we would wish it to be, but still working on that...)

Now hands up - what's the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to shoot under mains powered lights? For 24 fps and then for 25 fps in U.S? How about for 24 fps in U.K? What's the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to maintain a constant exposure over a frame rate ramp from 6 fps to 36 fps? What is the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to provide half the motion blur in varispeed at 24 fps compared to 12 fps?

The specific question behind this is: does programming / reporting in degrees provide more information to the user compared to 1/xx format (not the limited 1/xx reporting as we have on the camera right now) for each of these cases. If so, why? Or are angles just nice to have because we are comfortable with them - which is an O.K reason in its own right.
 
Angles are not really necessary at all; we're just looking for the best way to build a GUI that makes sense. Knowing that the shutter has been input as an angle automatically implies that it's tracking relative to the frame rate.

Inputting a shutter as a fixed exposure time (1/xx) implies that it will be fixed at that exposure time; the concept of a relative fixed exposure is a hard one to wrap one's head around.

If trying to avoid fluorescent flicker, I wouldn't use degrees, I'd dial in the exact exposure necessary in 1/xx format.

If, when we go to "relative" mode, the input changes to degrees, we could then select the blur behavior we want to have. The actual readout could be in 1/xx format, it's not all that vital to know what degrees we set it to, as David points out what's vital to know is what exposure we're getting. But the question is in the user interface for differentiating relative from absolute. (and in relative, we should see the 1/xx readout change as the FPS changes, of course).
 
Stuart English said:
Not arguing against any of the ideas outlined above, just pointing out how things currently work, and continuing to gather feedback.

If you change Project Frame Rate the camera automatically selects half the frame time - 24 - 1/48, 25 - 1/50, 30 - 1/60 etc if you will thats equal to 180 degrees. Varispeed and Ramps automatically maintain constant exposure unless you select RELATIVE, in which case it automatically emulates a fixed angle. (I acknowledge that the 1/xx report back in the GUI in these modes is not yet as functional as we would wish it to be, but still working on that...)

Now hands up - what's the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to shoot under mains powered lights? For 24 fps and then for 25 fps in U.S? How about for 24 fps in U.K? What's the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to maintain a constant exposure over a frame rate ramp from 6 fps to 36 fps? What is the required shutter speed in 1/xx format - and in degrees format - to provide half the motion blur in varispeed at 24 fps compared to 12 fps?

The specific question behind this is: does programming / reporting in degrees provide more information to the user compared to 1/xx format (not the limited 1/xx reporting as we have on the camera right now) for each of these cases. If so, why? Or are angles just nice to have because we are comfortable with them - which is an O.K reason in its own right.
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The only situation where I find the RELATIVE 1/xx format not practical is in varispeed mode because the selected duration is based on the project frame rate and not the actual frame rate in use. This seems to me just plain illogical. I'd really like to select a relative duration - we're in RELATIVE mode after all. And even in mathematical terms a relation is a simple factor, most easily represented as a percentage or (for historical reasons) as degrees. And such a factor wouldn't be based on any other setting. It could stand by itself.

Of course it would be great to see the actual exposure duration in the display so we know how how to set light levels and aperture. But since it's a RELATIVE mode I want to set it as a factor instead of an absolute value.
 
I just want to add that this has caught me out too.

I was shooting at 100fps in 'Normal' shutter mode, and the LCD told me 1/50th. I assumed that I could interpret this as an 180 degree shutter, ie actually 1/200th, but I now believe that it was an actual exposure time of 1/100th (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Of course it's impossible to monitor the motion blur live at 100fps, so in this case I found the LCD readout misleading.
 
I was asked for a 45 degree shutter on a 50 fps shoot yesterday and had difficulty figuring it out in the field under pressure. I've since put the following formula in the notepad on my iPhone:

(FPS X 360) / (Shutter angle the old-school DP is asking for)

Simple and seems to be accurate.
 
Why didn't you just dial 45 degrees on the camera? That was kind of the point.

I saw the old REDs I used to use today which I hadn't seen since build 14. It was nice to see yellow 180 on it. RED really listen.
 
He he. Fair enough.
 
Why adapt old nomenclature in a revolutionary camera? I just don't see the point.
 
I'm confused between normal & relative shutter modes. If I'm right one of the modes automatically adjusts the shutter speed when you change frame rate to maintain the same exposure time where possible - is this the relative mode? I don't like the sound of the camera not displaying what its "real" shutter speed is. Maybe there could be a separate display of what your absolute "exposure time" is (no matter what settings, frame rates and shutter speeds have been selected - it's a pretty simple calculation/equation, but one you haven't always got time to do in the field...I need a calculator for that too!) I think a lot of people would find this handy for making sure they're in synch with lights etc no matter what frame rate & shutter speed/angle combo they've got going on.
 
Personally, I think (as has been suggested before) that the confusion stems from having normal/relative separately selectable from shutter speed/angle.

It doesn't really make any sense for shutter speed not to be absolute, and conversely it doesn't make much sense for shutter angle not to be relative - so for my money, the normal/relative modes should simply be done away with, and you then know that if you're working in angles your shutter speed is relative to frame-rate, and if you're in shutter speed mode then it's absolute (at least up to the limits imposed by the frame-rate, if ramping). Unless I'm missing something?
 
Zakaree said:
i find more people requesting shutter angle over speed.
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IS IT? Sorry, but I beg do differ! What are your assumption based on?

Can't understand why RED should use old nomenclature, which in fact, NOT AT ALL, has anything to do with technique in the camera? And if there is a digital standard, why should people like me, do a "request" for the present?

I'm not alone on this one: "I don't see the point of using degrees in a camera without a mechanical shutter other than you know it's compensating when you select different frame rates." quotation from David Mullen, ASC, post!

(cool locationshots on your site!)
 
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