Should RED pay using footage in their showreel?

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

There's something I've always wanted to ask regarding the Red reel... Don't take it badly, but are the people, whose footage is used, paid by Red ? I'm asking because I've never met someone who let me use his Red for free and apparently Red never gave away his gear for free. So what is Red's politics about that, as the work submitted is used to increase Red sales ?


EDIT: Moderator's note: This and the following posts were split from Jim's thread asking us to submit footage for RED's new showreel.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

There's something I've always wanted to ask regarding the Red reel... Don't take it badly, but are the people, whose footage is used, paid by Red ? I'm asking because I've never met someone who let me use his Red for free and apparently Red never gave away his gear for free. So what is Red's politics about that, as the work submitted is used to increase Red sales ?

Free advertising to tens of thousands of viewers... which can lead to more work for you... quid pro quo mate. quid pro quo

EDIT: Besides, have you seen a RED REEL? We are talking about "seconds" here of footage from people, not "minutes"

peace

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Free advertising to tens of thousands of viewers... which can lead to more work for you... quid pro quo mate. quid pro quo

EDIT: Besides, have you seen a RED REEL? We are talking about "seconds" here of footage from people, not "minutes"

peace

Yes, I've seen a Red reel... it's not about the seconds, it's about the work and the costs you have to get these seconds. Please send me your Red for free for my next feature, I can assure you thousands of viewers which will lead you to more work...

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Yes, I've seen a Red reel... it's not about the seconds, it's about the work and the costs you have to get these seconds. Please send me your Red for free for my next feature, I can assure you thousands of viewers which will lead you to more work...

It's not like RED is asking you to go and shoot footage for the reel - they're asking for little clips of stuff people have already shot. What's wrong with that?

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

It's not like RED is asking you to go and shoot footage for the reel - they're asking for little clips of stuff people have already shot. What's wrong with that?

Well, obviously it seems quite hard for some Red owners to understand that making pictures costs money. The use of pictures, even if not asked by Red, is usually paid in a pro world. Unless everyone works for free to get these pictures, Red camera included, I don't see why the Red company, which is hold by a millionaire who owns an island, would get all this work for free.

Everytime I have a project, a feature film, a music video, etc... I have to pay to get a Red One. Red owners who think it's quite normal to give this footage for free can contact me offlist for a free use of their Reds. I'll be delighted to inform the whole world of their existence. Come on guys, don't be a pussy ;-)

I would understand though if the Red reel was edited with home movies, babies and the usual flowers stuff.

 

[Peter Majtan]

There's something I've always wanted to ask regarding the Red reel... Don't take it badly, but are the people, whose footage is used, paid by Red ? I'm asking because I've never met someone who let me use his Red for free and apparently Red never gave away his gear for free. So what is Red's politics about that, as the work submitted is used to increase Red sales ?

Jean-Charles, don't take it badly either, this is a voluntary request, not an order. No one is forcing You. It is an opportunity for us to give little love back to Jim & RED. They sure have given lots of love to us...

On a side-note - RED has provided on loan many people with cameras (and lenses/accessories) for various reasons FOC (Free Of Charge), Yours truly included. And I have met over the years quite a few individuals who have extended to me the same curtesy. Perhaps You are not asking the right people, or You are not asking the right way...

If I had a Mysterium-X camera now (we are about to place an order for two new ones and 3 upgrades), I would go out of my way to actually shoot dedicated footage for the real (plenty of stuff to shoot around Tokyo). I would also gladly provide footage FOC, as I have done in the past...

Cheers

Peter

EDIT: The credits will include Your name and the reel will be watched by millions world-wide. The advertising value of being included in the reel should be worth any "commercial feeling" You might be having...

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

And I have met over the years quite a few individuals who have extended to me the same curtesy. Perhaps You are not asking the right people, or You are not asking the right way...

I've never met such persons in 20 years : I think you would be the first one : you seem to have 3 or 5 Red Ones : I'm living in Paris and I'm working on my next feature. You can see my work on my website. Would you please accept to send me a small Red package (a 17-50mm lens would be enough) for 2-3 weeks for free ? The gear would be insured of course. And I will give all the footage to Red and the community for free. There will be actors, musiciens, technicians on this project, all working for free. I'm serious, we'll see if you're the first one :closedeyes:

 

[Martin Weiss]

Jean-Charles,

Most redusers feel that RED has given them so much (amazing camera for comparatively little money, dozens of free firmware upgrades, full-trade-in value of the camera, free hardware upgrades, direct interaction with top people, tech support at 2 a.m., etc, etc, etc), and take this as their chance to say thank you to the hard-working folks over at RED.

Talking of which: why only M-X footage? I'm sure there are petabytes of fantastic Mysterium footage shot within the past year.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Jean Charles, noone is asking anyone to work for free, people submit work already shot to RED for the Red Reel, I feel you don't understand the concept. Your work goes into the RED reel, which promotes the camera and your work, thus you make more money with your camera. Its advertising.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Yes I clearly understand the concept. As Red owners you only see one thing : the usage of your camera. But to have nice pictures to show, you need some actors, some technicians, some directing capabilities, etc...

Of course you submit some work which has been already done, how else could it be ? But maybe you should think about how this previous work was done : if you carefully look at the pictures in the previous reels, you will see that you rarely have flowers, landscapes, etc... You have stunts, actors, production design, etc...

It's always funny to see Red owners finding quite natural to give away for free the work that others paid for it. Again, if you find quite natural to be paid for the use of your camera, you should find quite natural that the director/producer who paid for it should be paid in return for the use of his work.

The advertising of being in the Red reel doesn't help at all the directors/producers/actors/etc but more the Red owners and especially Red, it's the purpose of the Red reel, no ?

Again : if you find quite normal Red's request, just put your balls and your money where your mouth is and contact me for a free use of your gear. I'm still waiting...

The same thing goes for the music. And don't forget they even make a selection of all the work submitted. I think it would be fair to pay for the use of this work.

 

[Jay Gannon]

The advertising of being in the Red reel doesn't help at all the directors/producers/actors/etc but more the Red owners and especially Red, it's the purpose of the Red reel, no ?

Ok all I am getting from you is that you dont like people who own RED's, only those who rent them.
Yes of course its advertising for all of the above, how could it not be.

You seem to have a major gripe with camera owners for some reason?

 

[Jay Gannon]

Again : if you find quite normal Red's request, just put your balls and your money where your mouth is and contact me for a free use of your gear. I'm still waiting...

Would I get a probable financial gain out of that? Not likely, no offense but I've never heard of you. Would I get probable financial gain from my work being included in a Reel that is being shown to producers/directors/studios with large budgets, quite possibly.

So if you could prove that the exposure that I would get form being involved in your production would be more financially viable than the cost of your renting my equipment yes I would consider it. As I have done on previous productions and its paid off well.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Ok all I am getting from you is that you dont like people who own RED's, only those who rent them.
Yes of course its advertising for all of the above, how could it not be.

You seem to have a major gripe with camera owners for some reason?

No, I've met great Red owners. I'm just saying that in the previous Red reels you rarely find footage shot by lonely Red owners but mainly footage which testifies of a lot of work behind the camera, mostly feature films. And this deserves to be paid.

Again, if the Red reel was made of flowers, babies, dogs, landscapes shots, the thing you usually see on vimeo (tests of 5d, 7d, etc...) I have nothing against that. But if you pretend to be pro (which is the case of Red, no ?) you should pay for the usage of the footage that a producer/director financed.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Would I get a probable financial gain out of that? Not likely, no offense but I've never heard of you. Would I get probable financial gain from my work being included in a Reel that is being shown to producers/directors/studios with large budgets, quite possibly.

I've never heard of you too :hand:

What do you mean by your work ? The thing you've financed yourself ? Or the things you've worked on, being paid and therefore for which you don't own the copyrights ?

 

[Martin Weiss]

Jean-Charles,

1. You've made your point.
2. Don't submit any footage to RED.
3. Move on.

 

[Graham_C]

Jean-Charles, don't take it badly either, this is a voluntary request, not an order. No one is forcing You. It is an opportunity for us to give little love back to Jim & RED. They sure have given lots of love to us...


EDIT: The credits will include Your name and the reel will be watched by millions world-wide. The advertising value of being included in the reel should be worth any "commercial feeling" You might be having...

Jean-Charles,I`ve just read through this thread and it`s seems to me your really pretty cross,which is a shame,i don`t really know why.I think Peter`s comments above give such a good summary of the why`s and i bet you those that contribute are not doing so for the credits at the end as he points out,but because of the sense of real community and Redspiritedness that abounds here.I think one of the major things driving RED and the members here is enthusiasm,and the request for participation in the Red reel is nothing more than a natural extension of that.

 

[Curran Giddens]

you should pay for the usage of the footage that a producer/director financed.

Or just get permission to use it for free specifically for the Red Reel from that producer/director who financed it. Obviously.

 

[Peter Majtan]

With all due respect,

To clear one more issue - all the footage submitted to RED for the inclusion in the reel is cleared for COPYRIGHT issues. Always a permission is given by the copyright holder for the use of the footage in the RED reel. No exceptions. So please drop that point.

About me helping You with RED camera package. If You have done for me even a fraction of what Jim and RED has done for me - I would not hesitate to send the package Your way immediately. So please drop that point too...

No hard feelings...

Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

Re-read Jim's first post:

Please ensure that all submissions are cleared for use at various RED presentations as well as online distribution.

...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Jean-Charles,

1. You've made your point.
2. Don't submit any footage to RED.
3. Move on.

Jean-Charles,

I completely agree with what Martin wrote...

I've had multiple of my shots used in several Red Reels since the beginning. I happily submitted the shots, was pleased to have them used in the reels, and it has been excellent promotion for my business. Beyond that, I've been very happy for the chance to give back to a Red company which consistently gives so much to this Red User community and the production industry as a whole.

If you don't want to submit shots for the Red Reel, then don't. To each their own. That said, there are many of us here who clearly see the wisdom in submitting our shots for Red Reels - and thus we've chosen to do so. Again, to each their own.