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Should I be concerned about the Canon Announcement? What about Scarlet?

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Peter Cote

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I ordered my Epic M last week. It is expected to ship out later this week. I am really excited because I truly love the capabilities of the Epic, and it has potential for a huge market of renters. However... should I be concerned about the Canon announcement on Thursday? or even the Scarlet announcement?

I just made a 70K+ investment in an Epic but here is what I am hearing.

Scarlet (according to Jim) is now a professional camera and I'm sure it promises a much lower price point than the Epic. Could that greatly reduce the number of renters for a much more costly Epic rental in comparison to what Scarlet will rent for? The Scarlet may fulfill a professional's needs now at lower cost.

Then there is the much anticipated Canon announcement on the same day. Here are the rumors which people seem confident in.

  • Price: sub $15,000 – possible down to $10,000
  • Image quality: Alexa good
  • SDI outs
  • XLRs (audio)
  • Piviting & detachable monitors and grips
  • PL mount and EF mount options
  • Resolution – 4k capture, 2k recording
Those are impressive at that price point. What does everyone think? Jim what do you say? I feel like I may be the only one rooting for a crappy announcement in the interest of preserving my investment.
 
Peter, your camera shoots 5K, has ability to record up to 300fps, has REDCODE RAW, has HDRx, is tiny for what it does, has a titanium PL mount, and has a nice warranty plan. I don't think you have much to be worried about in the near future.
 
No I agree, but I would say only 2 out of 10 shoot may be require frame rates up to 300 FPS. 24 FPS suits most shoots just fine. Yes HDRx is a huge plus, but is not perfect either. I am not questioning whether the Epic will still be a better camera. I don't have a doubt in my mind that it will still be the leader come Thursday. But if a $15,000 camera has a 35mm sensor size, dynamic range that may not beat but is still comparable to Epic/Alexa, has PL mount, and reasonable compression, then that will satisfy a lot of professional crews.

It could be comparable to the difference between 35mm and Red. Many film makers still prefer 35mm but can't justify the cost. The same may go here but at a lower tier. They may prefer Red over Canon cinema camera, but it may be hard for them to justify the additional cost of to rent an Epic (which would likely be at least 2-4 times as much).
 
Peter,

In one short word... NO.

I agree with Steve, nothing to worry about.

I'm holding out with my cash in hand for my EPIC-X stage 4 and am totally satisfied that this will still be the best camera when that time arrives.

:-)
 
What Steve says. The 300fps the Epic shoots is amazing. And it shoots 120fps at 5K! Have you seen the Rihanna videoclip posted here? Just look at that slow motion... This you'll not get with the Canon and the Scarlet. And the Epic will only get faster, possibly with firmware updates!. Also, don't forget that you're first in line for the next sensor upgrade. I think this will be a very big deal. Monstro will probably push the Epic into the stratosphere, without having to pay for a new camera...
 
I think the ability to upgrade to Monstro within a year trumps anything that Canon, Nikon and any other manufacturer will be announcing for three or more years. It's this kind of future proofing that made me confident enough to put down (for me) a very large chunk of money on an Epic-M, and to make the leap up from DSLR. As stills will very much remain part of my business, the Monstro ugrade will effectively replace all of my Canon bodies.
 
Well it's good to hear a lot of confidence. I do agree the sort of future proofing that comes with Red is nice, and I know that Red's loyalty to their customers seems unwavering.
 
Peter Cote said:
I ordered my Epic M last week. It is expected to ship out later this week. I am really excited because I truly love the capabilities of the Epic, and it has potential for a huge market of renters. However... should I be concerned about the Canon announcement on Thursday? or even the Scarlet announcement?

I just made a 70K+ investment in an Epic but here is what I am hearing.

Scarlet (according to Jim) is now a professional camera and I'm sure it promises a much lower price point than the Epic. Could that greatly reduce the number of renters for a much more costly Epic rental in comparison to what Scarlet will rent for? The Scarlet may fulfill a professional's needs now at lower cost.

Then there is the much anticipated Canon announcement on the same day. Here are the rumors which people seem confident in.

  • Price: sub $15,000 – possible down to $10,000
  • Image quality: Alexa good
  • SDI outs
  • XLRs (audio)
  • Piviting & detachable monitors and grips
  • PL mount and EF mount options
  • Resolution – 4k capture, 2k recording
Those are impressive at that price point. What does everyone think? Jim what do you say? I feel like I may be the only one rooting for a crappy announcement in the interest of preserving my investment.
Click to expand...
Horses for courses.

Peter maybe your concern is valid for you - it all really depends on your market and customers - or yourself, if its for personal use.
An 70k Epic package is step one. then there is glass.. head... etc.

- if you are building a lowcost package with for instance canon glass for a segment where that makes sense, then maybe yes, a scarlet or canon is a better choice financially. If the camera itself is the most expensive item by alot, then you need a lot of rentals relatively fast, before it's obsolete rental wise.
- if its for a segment where every item costs "half a camera", then the 70k investment doesnt stick out so much compared to the 12k Oconnor head, 100k-200k set of lenses etc, and that crowd will prob want the best camera. be it Epic or Alexa or Sony etc.
 
There is Nothing to worry about.

REDCODE is the King baby.

Canon is going to a 3x data rate and single frame GOP meaning less compression, but it's still going to be MPEG/H.264 of some kind.

MPEG/H.264 is a distribution format not acquisition.

If you like your images baked in and you don't plan to shoot visual FX? By all mean buy something else.

REDCODE is the only manageable high quality unbeatable codec out here now.

Thanks to Jim and the RED Team.

Sleep well my friend.

M

P. S. There is also going be a 12-25 minutes max recording time restriction with Canon formats.

LOL

Ouch
 
Well the investment has been made and the order is in so it is what it is. As far as we know, Scarlett will still be a fixed lens camera correct? If that is still true, then I am not concerned. The one thing that gives me hope on the Canon side is that they have not impressed me with the direction they have been taking in relation to compression.

It's not necessarily the cost of the Epic that worries me. I plan on having a very aggressive price on the rental package, but obviously like anyone I want to have the best possible chance of making back the investment. It's not the number 70K that matters, but that I want to give every investment the best chance whether it be 10K or 300K. Thanks for all the input all, appreciate the different perspectives.
 
Pete,

I totally agree with your line of thought. Im in the music video business, just got Epic-X. Ive seen people be increasingly content with 5d/7d, whatever. I guess in my mind, im already convinced the Scarlett will cannibalize some of the EPIC business. I think you'd be naive not to see it that way. Put yourself in the shoes of a scarlett owner and tell me you wouldnt be able to convince a potential client that whatever that camera can do would be "enough". Of course you could. broadcast is only 1080p now anyway.

for a few days that realization had me really shook. But then i remembered that its really comes down to the owner. Its all about you, your business acumen, and principally, your work. the cool thing about owning an EPIC over a Scarlett or even the Canon line, is that you attract a certain type of client that is willing to pay a premium for quality. And that usually means a bigger chunk for you. So the way i see it, yeah...less of the medium size fishees, but hopefully more of the larger ones, which further your career anyway.

just my $.02
 
Did you have a business plan to justify your purchase?
How would 2 lesser cameras affect your business plan?
If you are renting... do two lesser cameras provide competition... do your customers want the best, the cheapest?
Are you customers swayed by brand? Surely RED Epic holds up well?

If you are renting, I wouldn't worry about Scarlet, Canon etc.... The only one I would worry about is a 4K Alexa and the Sony F65.
 
Hi Peter,

Depending on what you do with the camera in your market will determine whether you made the right purchase.

I personally knew after spending time with the Red MX immediately after the sensor update that Red was on the right trajectory with Epic. There was no way they would let us down. Nothing else even came close - BECAUSE NO ONE WAS EVEN TRYING.

Now that the Major League "Establishment" is trying - sure there may be some "competition" - all the better.

Do you primarily make your money on rentals, as a studio, or as a combination of those?

I basically spent every Penny I had in August to buy an Epic M outright, and by the end of September my savings account was already back up to "Normal" operating levels - a quarter of that is due to my investment, and the other 75% of that is due to knowledge of the system, having worked with it for a decent amount of time, and being committed as an artist and technician.

Only you know for certain if it was the right purchase, and whether your business can thrive.

Where are you located? Do you need another Epic M person as a collaborator Ever?

cheers,

Dan
 
There are many cheap 2k HD cameras out there now for sale... what do you think will make this any different then those... ?

If the Canon comes out shooting 4k RAW at speeds up to 100 Fps.... for 10 to 15k... complete.... then and only then, would that really cause a stir.
But the odds of that are slim.
I'm really thinking HD max for the new cine Canon, a 10 bit new codec perhaps giving it better light range..., 60fps max.. 10k + price tag.

The only winning feature over the Scarlet will be the Chip size... 35mm over 2/3 inche (and maybe the camera comes complete with EVF etc.)
Other than that... Scarlet ticks every other performance box.

I personally dont like small chips or 16mm... but hey! thats my own opinion. I only shot 16mm once 15 years ago an hated it... Boring, 2/3rd inche is the same...
Great for TV shows, doco's etc...

Anyway... Horse's for course's.

3k 2/3 inche sensor shooting RAW.. thats still a great achievement none the less. Alexa is only 2.8k RAW @ 30fps... ! or 2k (HD) in PRORES.... spec wise, it beats it.
 
I really doubt that Canon is going to announce anything that will obsolete Epic.

So, short answer is NO.

That said, Canon is a capable company. They have a track record of NOT doing things, but its a huge mistake to think they CAN NOT do things. I think the folks at Red have a good sense of this, but they are intelligently confident.

There are dozens of ways they can improve on the current "prosumer" price points Scarlet is aimed at, as well as the low end professional market the F3 and EPIC S are aimed at.

I say it again and again ... people are satisfied with DSLR. Not us ... our clients and our audiences.

There is a huge gulf between what we know is good and what will be acceptable if prices are attractive.

RED's game has been game changing capability at attractive prices.

Canon can aim lower - and if I were them I'd be aiming right between the announced Scarlet and Epic S, but planning on leveraging my mass manufacturing expertise to deliver shockingly low prices. Somewhere between EOS 1X and F3. Of course looking around they may well try and play in the Alexa/Epic price points.

I am much more interested in what Red will announce.

I mean ... you guys do remember that they are planning on getting back a few thousand Red One bodies? We know what they can do in the space of an Epic. What can they stuff into those R1 bodies ... and at what price?
 
Mark Toia said:
The only winning feature over the Scarlet will be the Chip size... 35mm over 2/3 inch
Click to expand...

What about DR, noise etc? We can probably take a rough guess at what an 2/3 MX chip might be able to produce. I'd think 12 maybe 12.5 stops DR and usuable to about 3200iso, maybe 6400 at a push.

Judging by the sensor in the 1D-X... I think Canon will have a very good low light camera. DR, not so sure.
 
Peter Cote said:
I ordered my Epic M last week. It is expected to ship out later this week. I am really excited because I truly love the capabilities of the Epic, and it has potential for a huge market of renters. However... should I be concerned about the Canon announcement on Thursday? or even the Scarlet announcement?

I just made a 70K+ investment in an Epic but here is what I am hearing.

Scarlet (according to Jim) is now a professional camera and I'm sure it promises a much lower price point than the Epic. Could that greatly reduce the number of renters for a much more costly Epic rental in comparison to what Scarlet will rent for? The Scarlet may fulfill a professional's needs now at lower cost.

Then there is the much anticipated Canon announcement on the same day. Here are the rumors which people seem confident in.


  • Price: sub $15,000 – possible down to $10,000
  • Image quality: Alexa good
  • SDI outs
  • XLRs (audio)
  • Piviting & detachable monitors and grips
  • PL mount and EF mount options
  • Resolution – 4k capture, 2k recording

Those are impressive at that price point. What does everyone think? Jim what do you say? I feel like I may be the only one rooting for a crappy announcement in the interest of preserving my investment.
Click to expand...

Depends on your mission. If a high frame rate, raw and resolution are of critical importance and you have an immediate commercial need for a $70K package then you only have one option today. The only effect N3 announcements will have on your purchase is one of resale value. As always, the cost of technology comes down with time. If you have steady work for the Epic then this is not a concern. If you are putting it on a shelf to admire it then you might not enjoy the next year of depreciation.
 
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