Shotgun on camera mic

[Chris Burket]

Anyone have any suggestions for a good on camera mic for the Red? Also a lav mic (wired, not wireless).

 

[David W. Jones]

Lots of suggestions, the first would be Not to mount a shotgun mic on the camera.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

I sometimes mount my Sanken CS-1, a short shotgun on board. It has a wide enough pattern that it seems to me to be very similar to what I was hearing.

My lavs are Sennheiser wireless but a lot of people use the Sankens as well. It would be good to see if you could get wired lavs where you could use the same connections on a wireless so can go either way.

 

[zak forrest]

depends what your doing but i've had outstanding results with a sennheiser 416 gaff taped to the top rod of the camera. same with a shure sm57. but i dont think its really the best idea for most applications. it works great for what i've been doing

 

[Chris Burket]

I've heard good things about the sennheiser 416 actually. I'll have to check out the Sanken and Shure. For actual productions, there's always a sound mixer and his team, but for what I'm doing personally, for fun, a little on camera mic is the only way to go. Thanks.

 

[Dave Blackham]

An SM75 is a close vocal mic so many be not the best for this application. As David says best advice is not put it on the camera.

Pro mics Schoeps CMIT, Sennheiser MKH60, MKH416. Persona mics, Tram 50, Sony ECM77B would all match farily well. People speak well of Rode on this board and also the Audio Tecnica mics also are good value.

http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/products/subcategory.asp?catID=2&subID=16

Tere is one mic that has line level out so is well suited to camera mic use but I dont recall its ID number.

 

[Mark Whatmore]

We mount a Senheiser 416, using a K-Tech mount, which works well for recording ambient sound.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

if your looking for inexpensive, look at the Rode mics, good quality too

 

[David W. Jones]

As Mark suggested, if you must go on camera, something along the lines of the K-Tech mount helps out a bunch.

Good Luck!

 

[David W. Jones]

Sam, I don't consider myself a nay-sayer. And I do understand that there are times when a microphone needs to be attached to a camera body for one reason or another. I also understand that people have different standards when it comes to the audio product they deliver. For the product I deliver, perfectly good, is not good enough.

Video being equal, which would you want accompanying your Red footage?
Adequate Audio, Good Audio, or Great Audio?

 

[Dave Blackham]

Sam, I don't consider myself a nay-sayer. And I do understand that there are times when a microphone needs to be attached to a camera body for one reason or another. I also understand that people have different standards when it comes to the audio product they deliver. For the product I deliver, perfectly good, is not good enough.

Video being equal, which would you want accompanying your Red footage?
Adequate Audio, Good Audio, or Great Audio?

I agree. I've served my time as a sound recordist so have to admit being a little biased. To me using audio from a camera mic is always going to be guide audio i.e never used for programme use. Respectfully, from a cinematography point of view its a bit like carrying the camera and tripod in to a room and filming from the place you first put the tripod down from convenience without proper regard to framing, perspective and all of the considerations that you would have to compose a shot, not to mention the noises that the mic will pic up from camera operation and breathing, grunting and so on from the camera operator. Money is best spent on a mic stand and long cable if theres no recordist. The very first rule of recording is mic placement, unless its correct then no matter how good the mic it cant do its job to best effect. The other good thing about proper mic placement is its free and usually the easiest way to improve audio.

 

[Cedric Akins]

I agree. I've served my time as a sound recordist so have to admit being a little biased. To me using audio from a camera mic is always going to be guide audio i.e never used for programme use. Respectfully, from a cinematography point of view its a bit like carrying the camera and tripod in to a room and filming from the place you first put the tripod down from convenience without proper regard to framing, perspective and all of the considerations that you would have to compose a shot, not to mention the noises that the mic will pic up from camera operation and breathing, grunting and so on from the camera operator. Money is best spent on a mic stand and long cable if theres no recordist. The very first rule of recording is mic placement, unless its correct then no matter how good the mic it cant do its job to best effect. The other good thing about proper mic placement is its free and usually the easiest way to improve audio.

I too am biased, being an audio mixer, recordist and boom operator. Dave hit the nail on the head. It is always mic placement. Generally the closer you can get your mic to the subject you are filming the better the audio quality will be. I have used several different types of mics and each one has its uses in ideal situations. So there is no "one" mic for all situations.

Are you going to be shooting indoors, outdoors, in controlled or uncontrolled audio situations?

 

[M.Paul El-Darwish]

Not to throw a wrench in a discussion where we all mostly agree but has anyone used a Parabolic Mic reflector as they use commonly in sports arenas or is the sound overly distorted? It seems like a perfect idea for the shotgun owners out there.

 

[Jon B.]

I use the Rode ntg-2 for reference audio and to have that extra audio file if needed. It's mounted via shock mount top of the camera. It's really not there for anything else other than to reference... and sometimes can get in the way.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Not to throw a wrench in a discussion where we all mostly agree but has anyone used a Parabolic Mic reflector as they use commonly in sports arenas or is the sound overly distorted? It seems like a perfect idea for the shotgun owners out there.

We have a few parabolic dishes here, We use them for wildlife recording. But its a bit like listening down a drain pipe. So far as I recall any device that creates directionality by introducing phase filtering will start to sound odd and has more coloration. The Schoeps CMIT and MKH60 are much better controlled than most mics in this regard and they use well designed tube and even they have noticeable coloration. The more directional the mic then the effects are more severe. A parabolic dish as its very directional has more coloration. Thats not to say they are unusable, they have their uses. If you can use a very good Omni mic or better still a very controlled cardioid mic (MKH40 or CCM4) facing in to the dish then you stand a better chance of getting usable audio.

There may be other solutions to consider also, If your using a long lens and have a small area to cover the action then it may be you can get a mic on a radio link hidden near to the subject.

The other practical point when using 416, MKH60 and CMIT mic's and may be other mics of this sort of 'length' when they are placed in safe area (overscan) in the 16 x 9 view finder of the camera then usually they match the perspective of the shot quite well. This can annoy the camera man at times but does put the mic in the right place.

 

[M.Paul El-Darwish]

Awesome feedback Dave. Thnx.
RE:"If you can use a very good Omni mic or better still a very controlled cardioid mic (MKH40 or CCM4) facing in to the dish then you stand a better chance of getting usable audio."
That's pretty much what I thought, as the Cardoid or Hyper-Cardoid pattern should intersect nicely with the focal point of the parabola. I imagine that recordist at 20' from the subject would get much better sound and more rejection than merely pointing the shotgun from a 12' boompole.

We have a few parabolic dishes here, We use them for wildlife recording. But its a bit like listening down a drain pipe. So far as I recall any device that creates directionality by introducing phase filtering will start to sound odd and has more coloration. The Schoeps CMIT and MKH60 are much better controlled than most mics in this regard and they use well designed tube and even they have noticeable coloration. The more directional the mic then the effects are more severe. A parabolic dish as its very directional has more coloration. Thats not to say they are unusable, they have their uses. If you can use a very good Omni mic or better still a very controlled cardioid mic (MKH40 or CCM4) facing in to the dish then you stand a better chance of getting usable audio.

There may be other solutions to consider also, If your using a long lens and have a small area to cover the action then it may be you can get a mic on a radio link hidden near to the subject.

The other practical point when using 416, MKH60 and CMIT mic's and may be other mics of this sort of 'length' when they are placed in safe area (overscan) in the 16 x 9 view finder of the camera then usually they match the perspective of the shot quite well. This can annoy the camera man at times but does put the mic in the right place.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Awesome feedback Dave. Thnx.
RE:"If you can use a very good Omni mic or better still a very controlled cardioid mic (MKH40 or CCM4) facing in to the dish then you stand a better chance of getting usable audio."
That's pretty much what I thought, as the Cardoid or Hyper-Cardoid pattern should intersect nicely with the focal point of the parabola. I imagine that recordist at 20' from the subject would get much better sound and more rejection than merely pointing the shotgun from a 12' boompole.

Thats correct. But don't use a hyper cardioid mic as it has a back facing lobe) The reason for a very good cardioid mic (the better cardioids have better controlled polar pattern) is that the dead area is facing the action the I've side (front in to the dish). The idea is only to have audio in to the mic through one path so it minimises phasing. if it were an omni then you can get direct audio and also the reflected audio from the dish there is a small delay and it can cause coluration. You'll need to test and make sure its all setup to your liking.