Short Film Title

[Ryan Patch]

Knowing nothing about the movie, let me know which you'd like to see more, which title intrigues you more, and what do they make you think of?

"The Sheol Express" or "The Writing on the Windows"

This is a 30 min, large-budget fantasy short that is being produced in New York this spring. If anyone wants to help out, we'd love to meet some of you in person!

 

[number6]

Ryan, no offense, but I don't like either title. How about "Whose yellow name is that in the snow?"

I think it fits the unknown movie better. No?:cold:

 

[Manfred Lopez]

This is a no-brainer from a producer's perspective: go with "The Sheol Express". Here are some reasons:

1. Film is dynamic. Storytelling is best also when it is dynamic. "The Writing on the Windows" implies that you have to sit there and read something on a window (boring), while "The Sheol Express" implies going somewhere fast and for a reason.

2. The word 'Express' has proven to be a successful word in titles ("Midnight Express", "Murder on the Oriental Express", "Pineapple Express") and always conveys a sense of urgency, while 'Window' usually only works when associated with a peeping tom ("Rear Window", "Secret Window", "The Woman in The Window", "The Bedroom Window").

3. The word 'Sheol' only scores a 'C-' in my mind because while it does convey a place and mythology (Hades), it is too obscure for most audiences (some even confusing with 'Seol'). It also has the dreaded 'S' sound beginning which is always bad for titles. If you changed the word Sheol with something with a 'K' or 'P' or 'T' or 'R' sound in it you would vastly improve the title. Something like "The Hellrock Express" would work better from a sound perspective (even if I don't know what the hell it means).

 

[Joel Kaye]

Knowing nothing about the movie, let me know which you'd like to see more, which title intrigues you more, and what do they make you think of?

"The Sheol Express" or "The Writing on the Windows"

This is a 30 min, large-budget fantasy short that is being produced in New York this spring. If anyone wants to help out, we'd love to meet some of you in person!

Neither. If I knew what Sheol was I guess it would be better. The Writing on the Windows just sounds like it's an introspective drama to me. I guess the cover art could have a ton to do with altering my perception though.

There's got to be a better title buried in that script if it's truly a large budget fantasy loaded with ideas.

 

[Jason Ing]

Maybe...

"The Writing on the Windows of the Sheol Express"



Okay, so my 2 cents. I generally agree with the others. When you think genre, neither sounds like a fantasy to me. You'll need a great fantasy image to go with the title.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

By the way, when you say if people want to 'help out', what kind of positions are you looking for? Only crew or also during preproduction?

 

[Tico Llaurador]

"Words and Windows"

 

[P Andersson]

with the help of http://thesaurus.reference.com/

The Obsidian Rules

 

[Manfred Lopez]

Just go with "The Hellrock Express" and be done with it. :sorcerer: (and don't forget about my royalty payments )

 

[Ruairi Robinson]

This is a no-brainer from a producer's perspective: go with "The Sheol Express". Here are some reasons:

1. Film is dynamic. Storytelling is best also when it is dynamic. "The Writing on the Windows" implies that you have to sit there and read something on a window (boring), while "The Sheol Express" implies going somewhere fast and for a reason.

No it doesn't. It implies there is writing on windows as part of the story.

2. The word 'Express' has proven to be a successful word in titles ("Midnight Express", "Murder on the Oriental Express", "Pineapple Express") and always conveys a sense of urgency, while 'Window' usually only works when associated with a peeping tom ("Rear Window", "Secret Window", "The Woman in The Window", "The Bedroom Window").

Umm, and like "Con Express, and Dreamland Express and Casablanca Express and about 400 other movies with "express" in the title that nobody ever heard of...?

I felt totally robed when I saw Chunking express, and didn't feel this urgency you had promised I would feel because of the title. The film just meandered along! Where are the explosions, dammit?

3. The word 'Sheol' only scores a 'C-' in my mind because while it does convey a place and mythology (Hades), it is too obscure for most audiences (some even confusing with 'Seol'). It also has the dreaded 'S' sound beginning which is always bad for titles. If you changed the word Sheol with something with a 'K' or 'P' or 'T' or 'R' sound in it you would vastly improve the title. Something like "The Hellrock Express" would work better from a sound perspective (even if I don't know what the hell it means).

[/QUOTE]

Yeah as everyone knows, movies with titles starting with the "dreaded S" always suck, or fail at the box office. Like Superman. And Star Wars.And Silence of the Lambs. And Sunset Boulevard. And The Shining. And Saving Private Ryan. And Some Like it Hot. And Schindlers List.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

My, are we feeling a bit aggressive today?

No it doesn't. It implies there is writing on windows as part of the story.

Sez you... Definitely up to individual opinion, i would say. Besides, I meant on a subconscious level... not in your literal reading of the words. "Writing on Windows" by itself --taken as a title-- just soft-sells the plot. But maybe that is what the movie needs. This is a very well established technique for "A"-level movies. You make an awesomely intense film, then you name it on purpose soft... people will then perceive it as more intense when they are done watching it. The title on purpose lowers your expectations. This is called CONTRAST. "The Shinning" is a very good example. So the question is, is the project which this thread refers to sufficiently intense to merit the use of a soft title like "The Writing on The Windows"?

Umm, and like "Con Express, and Dreamland Express and Casablanca Express and about 400 other movies with "express" in the title that nobody ever heard of...?

I felt totally robed when I saw Chunking express, and didn't feel this urgency you had promised I would feel because of the title. The film just meandered along! Where are the explosions, dammit?

The promise of the title has nothing to do with the story or the film itself... because it is just a Promise... An advertisement. It doesn't mean that the filmmakers are contractually bound to make good on it.

They could have made a horrible movie out of Casablanca even though the title is good, yet it turn out great (it was definitely not meant to be that good if you watch the supplements and making-of). And then you have films like Chunking Express and it lets you down. And then you have films with bad titles that are actually better than the title implies... like "The Beguiled" with Clint Eastwood (Terrible title... very watchable film). So please don't try to knock titles by association to the movies they are tied to (remember, titles are many times recycled, so they are definitely independent of movies as a separate creation, that's why they can't be copyrighted).

Yeah as everyone knows, movies with titles starting with the "dreaded S" always suck, or fail at the box office. Like Superman. And Star Wars.And Silence of the Lambs. And Sunset Boulevard. And The Shining. And Saving Private Ryan. And Some Like it Hot. And Schindlers List.

Ruairi, read my post again... I never said 'titles starting with'. Half this list does contain the strong sounds that I mentioned. The other half invoque the soft-sell technique discussed above. So what's your point. I still stand by my statement that titles containing strong sounds are a strong sell. If not I dare you to change your film from "Akira" to "Shima's Shenanigans" :devil:


EDIT:
Corrected Ruairi's name. I had misspelled it. Sorry about that.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

huh.. Chunking Express is boring?

 

[Manfred Lopez]

huh.. Chunking Express is boring?

Well, to Ruairi... not to me. I guess it is all a matter of personal taste. I was just working with his example of a 'boring' film so as not to come off completely confrontational since I really like his work. By the way, I can't wait for the Criterion Blu-Ray edition of this film.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Hehe, I believe it is more of a matter of content vs. form.

 

[Ryan Patch]

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks so much for all your help and support! It seems that neither of the titles are particular winners, so we'll keep searching. I agree that if those are the only titles that we have, that it's unlikely the writing is good... they're not too strong, although I totally see the active connotation of "express"... thanks for helping me put my finger on that.

Maybe, after I register the script, I can post the script (or at least the first couple of pages and see if anyone has thoughts about it, I would love to hear your guys' thoughts and see if you can pull a title from the mess. I think it's the best thing I've ever written, but I realize that doesn't hold a lot of cred.

In regards to TheThe, we're looking for all sorts of help, pre-pro, production, post. I really think it's going to be a great film/shoot/experience. Shoot me a line if you would like to help out in any way!

Hopefully I can get the script up soon. I hear that my RED just arrived at my doorstep, so I may be a little distracted this weekend...

 

[Jason Ing]

Yeah as everyone knows, movies with titles starting with the "dreaded S" always suck, or fail at the box office.

Well, Ruairi, I guess you'll just have to change your title, "The Silent City" to something else. Especially since it's twice as dreaded since "city" is pronounced with a soft "S" instead of a hard "K", right?



By the way, TheThe, do you mean that plosive sounds like K, T, P, etc. sound stronger then non-plosives like S, H, or R? If so, then I think you'll have to take "R" off your list of strong sounds to be consistent.

And is that why "Rocky" did so great because it has both an "R" soft sound and a "K", hard sound, in the title and so it gives great "contrast"?

j/k

 

[Tom Lowe]

I like "The Sheol Express" better. At least it makes you wonder what "Sheol" even means.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

By the way, TheThe, do you mean that plosive sounds like K, T, P, etc. sound stronger then non-plosives like S, H, or R? If so, then I think you'll have to take "R" off your list of strong sounds to be consistent.

And is that why "Rocky" did so great because it has both an "R" soft sound and a "K", hard sound, in the title and so it gives great "contrast"?

j/k

No, it isn't just about being an explosive sound. "R" is part of the hard-sell camp. I think it has to do with what is easiest to remember and say. Think of what would be easiest for a child to say. So anything with those sounds helps. Also anything with a repetition... like "Bam Bam". That's why "express" is good because it repeats the 'eh' sound and combines it with two strong consonant sounds to boot (The 'x' and the 'pr' sounds). But all this is not my opinion. It is all part of well-established science on human speech.

Okay, with the risk of sounding too much like an a-hole (and then having people like Ruairi tear me down), I'd like to share something I learned regarding dialogue editing for movies. I think it directly sheds light on what I'm talking about. Human sounds seem to be catalogued into two major camps. One camp is where the intonation of each sound is very specific to each person in regards to gender, age, voice pitch, etc. The other is where sound is completely universal and we can't tell who it is coming from. Dialogue editors have for years known the difference between the two and often 'repair' the spoken dialogue of on-screen characters by dubbing in their own voice over the actor's lines... and no one can tell the difference. This is mostly done when actors don't pronounce all the correct sounds or letters of words in the heat of acting.

I was amazed to see this phenomenon when it was first demoed to me. This fat, deep-voiced, unshaven dialogue editor was dubbing in sounds for a six-year-old actress's lines... and it seemed that she was saying the improved lines. Apparently when someone makes an 's' sound no one can tell from what kind of person it is coming from, so we have to wait for some other clues like 'r', 'p', 'k', etc, sounds to tell us if a little girl is speaking or if it's that old, fat sound editor. So it seems these sounds are what makes us remember the person saying them more (think of them as sounds helping a bat out to determine size, shape and distance because of the resonance that they cause). So therefore these sounds make us remember the titles better. It helps even more if a character or voice-over artist appropriate with the mood of the film (Don LaFontaine, you will be missed) says the title to us in advertisements. So I hope all of this makes sense. So now if Ruairi still wants to rip down the science by throwing movie grosses at me, fine. But I still believe that not all titles are created equal and that there is a rational explanation of why.

...

 

[jpp]

Probably the only title in film history which we know for sure significantly altered the film's box office for the better was "sex, lies and videotape", which doesn't appear to satisfy any of Thethe's demands.

Since films are rarely re-released with new titles, it's impossible to conclude much with any certainty. But the phonetic approach would seem somewhat limited as an explanation, compared to invoking broader concepts, for example, that it's a dirty movie which you can enjoy without shame, because it's also arty and maybe even a little boring. Pretty good work, for a title. And it sold a lot of tickets.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

Probably the only title in film history which we know for sure significantly altered the film's box office for the better was "sex, lies and videotape", which doesn't appear to satisfy any of Thethe's demands.

You are right. That's because Sex trumps almost everything. I would roughly rank the trump order for titles as follows:


TITLES ARE BEST WHEN THEY INLUDE:

1. A KNOWN COMMODITY. This trumps all. If a title includes a reference or is a sequel, a known phrase, or makes reference to a known story, then you have the battle mostly won. Incidentally, one of the best titles that I saw coming out of this year's Cannes film market is a movie called "Yes, Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus". This is one of the best family holiday film titles I have seen in a long time.


2. Promise of SEX and/or VIOLENCE in the title. Yes, "Sex, Lies, and Video Tape" definitely took advantage of this. "War of The Worlds" is one of the all time great titles that promises violence. The first time around it had the promise of mayor, spectacular on-screen mayhem. Plus it had the strong-sell sounds and the repetition to boot. Now when Spielberg redid it it, it also was a know commodity. Pretty hard to beat that combination.


3. GENRE-SPECIFIC REFERENCES. This is popular for b-movies that don't have a marketing budget. You simply build in all advertisement into the title. Take any Steven Seagal or Van Dam movie and you know what I am talking about ("Double Impact", "Urban Justice", "Hard to Kill", "Above The Law"). The down side is that you can't employ the technique of CONTRAST, which is what really elevates a film to a-level.


4. PHONETICS. When you don't have any of the above, then you have to rely on phonetics. So, since the two titles we had to work with in this thread didn't have any of the above techniques I naturally had only phonetics to work with.


5. HUGE MARKETING. When you have nothing to work with, then just spend a ton of money to get people to remember the film. Yes, if they repeat it often enough to us, we will start to believe it is a known commodity.

...

P.S. I hope these new set of 'demands' can finally convince some of you.