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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shootout: RedOne vs F35

Sidney said:
The rental house - and this is ofcourse completely "hearsay" - that the RED1 blew all the videocams away. 35mm is another matter. Film is film... that comes down to an aestetic choice - and ofcourse financially:)
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I seriously doubt that any HD camera will blow the F35 out of the water. It's a very good camera and very expensive.
 
I'd wait for Build 16 before any meaningful image comparisons are made...

The F35 is just the Genesis by a different name - not particularly stunning considering it'll set you back close to $300,000 (I'll have 17 Reds instead please :biggrin:)
 
I'm not sure that the F35 is just a Sony branded Genesis I think there is more to the camera than that.
And I think that in the FreshDV interview the price is still undecided but will probably be around $200,000 to $250,000
 
CraigWB said:
I'm not sure that the F35 is just a Sony branded Genesis I think there is more to the camera than that.
And I think that in the FreshDV interview the price is still undecided but will probably be around $200,000 to $250,000
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I am also not sure its a genesis, however the sensor specs match exactly.
 
In really simple terms the plastic look is in the "video" genes. The Red is more like a digital still camera that shoots really fast, than a video camera. This is why it feels more organic. The RAW system of compression is very different than video compression so it is not fair to compare bit rates of recording. RAW is much more efficient but at a price, that price is rendering time (pixel interpolation) still photos shot raw go through the same process. In digital stills shooting RAW is the highest quality you can get.
 
laguun said:
I am also not sure its a genesis, however the sensor specs match exactly.
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The engineer at NAB said it was an updated Genesis for whatever that's worth. One thing that got me however, is the viewfinder...it's a removeable mirror mechanism that reflects an image from a small lcd (approx. 4 inches wide). The kicker is that the lcd doesn't give you an hd image, not even 720.

For the money I really expected innovation on that front.
 
davecw said:
I'd wait for Build 16 before any meaningful image comparisons are made...

The F35 is just the Genesis by a different name - not particularly stunning considering it'll set you back close to $300,000 (I'll have 17 Reds instead please :biggrin:)
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Build 16 is Jim's answer to this very test, I believe.:ninja:

Emmanuel
 
laguun said:
I am also not sure its a genesis, however the sensor specs match exactly.
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is it worth just recorded on HDCAM SR format COMPRESSED or we have options like S.two or Codex uncompressed RGB444.

David Fincher did that uncompressed HD444 gig but with Viper Cams ( 6 units for one project )

Stewart
HKG
WOW Holdings
 
Lappe767 said:
http://www.solarsystemstudio.com/So...Cinema’s_Red_One_vs._Sony’s_CineAlta_F35.html
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The first paragraph at this link reads as follows:

"Sony is trying to block RED from being used on Sony Pictures movies. Panavision has also made it their policy not to rent lenses to Red One owners. I could have made this a Red One vs. Panavision Genesis comparison, but since the Genesis is only available for rental, the price list and availability wouldn't be relevant."

What's up. I know there has been some backlash, to say the least, but that seems unprofessional (life's not fair, I know).

What's the deal.
 
I checked out the F35 and the F23 at NAB as thoroughly as I could. The main differences between them and the Red as I see them:

-Cost. Obviously.

-Form factor. The Sony's are big and heavy. For some that won't matter, but it's important to me.

-Nature of the image. It's been said before here, that the Sony's take very clean pictures. True. It's also been said that they look antiseptic. Also true, IMO. The Sony's have been referred to as having video genes, and that accounts for their look. I somewhat disagree, as the Panasonics all have a very pleasing look and colorimetry compared to the Sony's, from the Varicam and DVX to the HVX and the HPX's. And Red is much more so, and as it has been said, organic. It has always seemed to me that Sony has designed their imagers to look good to test instruments, while others, like Panasonic since 2000, have gone for what looks good to the human eye, at the expense of some "cleanness". It's all subjective of course, and we choose the tools that support the story we are trying to tell. Red fits my aesthetic very well, though I can conceive of a situation where I would favor the Sony's - perhaps some kind of THX 1138 kind of film or the first part of "Joe Versus The Volcano."

I like the fact that there are choices available to us; for me, I chose Red, and have been ecstatic with what I have been getting out of it. And the workflow isn't turning out to be a problem either. Shooting P2 also required a lot of changes to how we do things, and now that I am used to that, I really don't ever want to shoot on tape again. P2 has been like the "gateway drug" to harder drugs like Red!

On another note, the more I think about the coming of Epic, the more I am stoked. When I first heard about it, I thought, well I certainly don't need that, as I am very satisfied with my Red One and don't see the need for an upgrade. But after seeing the form factor and analyzing the proposed specs, it's lighter, smaller, has more recording options for bitrate, newer sensor. AND, I can turn in my Red One body for full credit ($17500) if I choose to. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO THIS! Yes, it's more expensive, so I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Perhaps I won't want to spend the extra money. But seriously, the money I spent on Red One will all come back to me if I get the Epic? That's like a free rental of the Red One body. Unbelievable.

And anyone who complained about Epic, think about it: you should be ashamed of yourselves. There is NO downside!
 
Pierce Cook said:
The first paragraph at this link reads as follows:

"Sony is trying to block RED from being used on Sony Pictures movies. Panavision has also made it their policy not to rent lenses to Red One owners. I could have made this a Red One vs. Panavision Genesis comparison, but since the Genesis is only available for rental, the price list and availability wouldn't be relevant."

What's up. I know there has been some backlash, to say the least, but that seems unprofessional (life's not fair, I know).

What's the deal.
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Sony Pictures are not keen to shoot a major film on a camera that is still essentially in beta test, quite reasonably. Once the firmware builds are stabilised a little, and the post workflow is a little more solid then I doubt any such restriction will be enforced.

As for Panavision, apparently that's be debunked also, there've been a number of posts here stating that it's definitely not the case. Some PV branches may want to limit their rentals, as they don't want to be left with cameras but no glass to rent for them, so they'll probably limit the rental of lenses if it will leave them with insufficient inventory to support their own camera stock.
 
We did David Fincher with Claudio Miranda F23/Red test. We have both cameras, they both offer different imaging capabilities. Guys they're film stocks at this point, they have different looks. The daylight footage of that test did amazingly well, it was the night stuff that looked bad (I debayered it prepped it and was in on the session). Red has since made massive strides, and I have not received any night footage since that has been on that level.

F23 still has more range in the highlights, but well come on, don't go bashing or making base judgements on tests you've heard about. All things being said the only reason we didn't release that footage was because in our opinion Red changed enough as far as sensor capabilities that releasing the footage was irrelevent.

Now the Build 16, F23, and D21 test we're planning that I want to release.
 
Sycophant said:
Sony Pictures are not keen to shoot a major film on a camera that is still essentially in beta test, quite reasonably. Once the firmware builds are stabilised a little, and the post workflow is a little more solid then I doubt any such restriction will be enforced.

As for Panavision, apparently that's be debunked also, there've been a number of posts here stating that it's definitely not the case. Some PV branches may want to limit their rentals, as they don't want to be left with cameras but no glass to rent for them, so they'll probably limit the rental of lenses if it will leave them with insufficient inventory to support their own camera stock.
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That I completely understand. Perhaps I took the original statement more pessimistically than I should have.
 
I'd have loved to have pointed the F35 at a zone plate to see how it's true resolution measures, and how much aliasing gets through. That's the real benefit of doing a 4k Bayer pattern sensor - you can properly optically filter and still have great resolution.

Graeme
 
Yes, I think Bayer is clever.

A Bayer sensor normally keeps half of its total pixels when converted to full color (a 12 megapixel Bayer sensor winds up with roughly a 6 megapixel RGB final image). Meanwhile a sensor striped in columns of red, green, blue, red, green, blue -- like on the F35 -- keeps only a third. Bayer can be thought of as a form of "compression" before you compress digitally.

Furthermore, I think wavelet compression is stunning. Some people have reported testing a compression of 40 to one without being able to see any difference from the original. I've eyeballed full-resolution stills from the Red. No jaggies or mosquito noise like you may have, say, in a JPEG. If you have a hard time detecting artifacts while slowly examining a still image, how much less noticeable will any be in the rapidly moving images of an engrossing story?
 
I don't think the striped approach gives you "full" color reproduction since the elements are still in different locations / offset from each other. Ideally you'd want the elements stacked into the same location *with perfect optics and spectral response*.

Some lenses will have some chromatic aberration, so it is one barrier to full color reproduction.
I believe the 3CCD prism will introduce some CA. (Though many 3CCD cameras use pixel shifting, which is probably not the "full" color reproduction you're looking for.)

Foveon doesn't have the prism problem, but then it has its own problems since silicon is a poor color filter.

2- In practice I don't think all that stuff matters too much. Human vision doesn't have as good color acuity as luminance acuity... so it's not really an issue if luminance resolution is better than color resolution.

The Red makes good images.

And it even chroma keys really well. (Better than some other 3CCD systems out there.)

So I don't think there are really much issues with the color reproduction (in the spatial/resolution /artifacts sense).
 
Jeff Brue said:
We did David Fincher with Claudio Miranda F23/Red test. We have both cameras, they both offer different imaging capabilities. Guys they're film stocks at this point, they have different looks. The daylight footage of that test did amazingly well, it was the night stuff that looked bad (I debayered it prepped it and was in on the session). Red has since made massive strides, and I have not received any night footage since that has been on that level.

F23 still has more range in the highlights, but well come on, don't go bashing or making base judgements on tests you've heard about. All things being said the only reason we didn't release that footage was because in our opinion Red changed enough as far as sensor capabilities that releasing the footage was irrelevent.

Now the Build 16, F23, and D21 test we're planning that I want to release.
Click to expand...

Very sensible comments from someone who knows what he is talking about. Thanks a lot and looking forward to the new test!
 
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