Shooting with RED for the first time...

[JustinBrown]

Hello everyone! Recently I have decided to shoot a short film which will be my first "real" production. My experience organizing all of the details of a shoot is limited to working as a PA on several other peoples projects over the years. While they were great learning experiences one thing that always lacked was the details...ie What equipment do I need? What key personnel are needed? Etc etc...

What I am hoping is that there may be someone here who would be willing to clue me in a little. I've never worked with a RED camera and have no idea how much or how little is required to make good looking finished product.

Any information you can send my way would be greatly appreciated! Thanks-
Justin

 

[MichaelHalsell]

Are you asking for techincal information for operating a RED camera or is the scope of your question broader?

 

[JustinBrown]

Are you asking for techincal information for operating a RED camera or is the scope of your question broader?

I would say broader. I have never been on a RED shoot and am trying to put together how much money I am going to have to spend to get a really nice looking finished product. Who am I going to have to hire for what roles in the production end of things...stuff like that mostly.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Get a good 1st AD/Producer to keep everything straight and on schedule.
Get a good DP to give your picture that professional look.
Get a good 1st AC to make sure you don't waste time with takes out of focus and finicky cameras.
Get a good DIT/Datawrangler to make sure you have something to edit at the end of the day.
Get a good Grip to manage equipment and let your DP and 1st AC work efficiently.

Between those 5 at a minimum you should be able to do Ok assuming you have small setups. Also spend as much time and energy in great locations as possible. A great location with good light can save a lot of time and effort. Not even RED can make a boring white wall apartment look sexy and big budget.

 

[michael zaletel]

Get as many people as you can afford (or convince). Remember, a lot of great independent films are the result of lots of people working practically for free. Try not to think in terms of how few people or talents are required to do good work, if you know how to motivate and coordinate a talented team, ask the most experienced and talented among them how many they need for optimal efficiency.

It is possible, but not recommended to shoot a good independent film on the RED with 3 people not including cast. Just depends on how talented and cross-trained those three people are. A single person can act as DP, Camera Operator, Grip and 1st and 2nd AC. It's not ideal for the DP/Camera Operator to pull their own focus and light their own scenes, but many can. You need a really talented and experienced sound guy/gal who will likely complain about working alone but can do it if they have to and lots of stands to hold stuff. Finally, you need a person that can simultaneously handle the duties of Director and AD (not an easy task). Finally, if all three of you have substantial computer skills, you can work together on the DIT/Datawrangler duties.

It all comes down to efficiency and speed though Michael. The above is not a recommendation or a suggestion, just a bare minimum. In truth, one person could do all of the above and even be the actor in a single-person scene as long as the camera is not moving or if you have a Motion Control Rig. It would just take a very long time to set up each scene and that one person would have to be extremely talented, experienced and cross-trained. Sure, the RED and tools like Final Cut Pro make it possible to be a one-man band, but great filmmaking is the product of exceptional teamwork. Just because fewer people can handle more duties doesn't mean they should.

Finally, you asked "how much or how little is required to make good looking finished product." There are people in Hollywood that completely alone could build a great set, nail the wardrobe, light the scene, set up the mics, set up the camera, make the best lens choice, identify the optimal exposure, start recording sound and camera and then step out in front of the lens and act out the scene and the result would be "a great looking finished product". This process could take them two weeks to prep and shoot a 30 second scene. It just doesn't make sense to work that way.

As far as equipment goes, it really depends on the script. A movie about two people trapped in a cave after an earthquake has far different requirements than a period piece involving fifty locations on separate continents and armies of thousands of people.

-michael zaletel

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Hello everyone! Recently I have decided to shoot a short film which will be my first "real" production. My experience organizing all of the details of a shoot is limited to working as a PA on several other peoples projects over the years. While they were great learning experiences one thing that always lacked was the details...ie What equipment do I need? What key personnel are needed? Etc etc...

What I am hoping is that there may be someone here who would be willing to clue me in a little. I've never worked with a RED camera and have no idea how much or how little is required to make good looking finished product.

Any information you can send my way would be greatly appreciated! Thanks-
Justin

If you have to ask, you probably aren't anywhere near ready to produce your own film.

The answer is that the camera doesn't make great pictures, the people on the crew make great pictures.

The key roles you need are:

Producer
Director
Cinematographer (aka DP, DoP)

I suggest getting someone on board in your local area with lots of experience in one of those three roles. My preference is for a DP, they are least likely to try and take over your project.

They'll be able to give you the advice you need and lead you to the other people you need.

A good place to start is with your local film organizations.

I'd steer away from RED for your first show. I'd try a camcorder of sorts for your first few. They are very easy and fast to use.

Once you have a couple of easy pieces under your belt you can add the complications of a more professional camera system and its attendant crew.

Oh, and read. A LOT.

 

[michael zaletel]

I'd steer away from RED for your first show. I'd try a camcorder of sorts for your first few. They are very easy and fast to use.

Excellent advice. I'd only add that you still want to use a camcorder that has pro XLR inputs and find someone that can provide a good mix using pro mics into the camera so you aren't trying to sync sound later. Recording great, usable sound on set is so important when you have no time or budget for a dialogue editor. Oh and make sure to record room tone often just in case (tell everyone to shut up and stop moving and just roll camera for 30 seconds whenever the ambient sound changes).

-michael zaletel

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Excellent advice. I'd only add that you still want to use a camcorder that has pro XLR inputs and find someone that can provide a good mix using pro mics into the camera so you aren't trying to sync sound later. Recording great, usable sound on set is so important when you have no time or budget for a dialogue editor. Oh and make sure to record room tone often just in case (tell everyone to shut up and stop moving and just roll camera for 30 seconds whenever the ambient sound changes).

-michael zaletel

Absolutely yes! In fact I'm ashamed I didn't mention it.

 

[JustinBrown]

...snip...
Between those 5 at a minimum you should be able to do Ok assuming you have small setups. Also spend as much time and energy in great locations as possible. A great location with good light can save a lot of time and effort. Not even RED can make a boring white wall apartment look sexy and big budget.

Sounds good. These are the kind of things I was wondering about. Since the projected costs just for the camera and it's related gear are already pretty high being efficient with time and resources is a big worry for me.

Get as many people as you can afford (or convince). Remember, a lot of great independent films are the result of lots of people working practically for free. Try not to think in terms of how few people or talents are required to do good work, if you know how to motivate and coordinate a talented team, ask the most experienced and talented among them how many they need for optimal efficiency.

Good points. Right now I am trying to cobble together friends that might be interested, and who also have experience. As it stands I possibly have one person who is currently getting certified on the RED for his own purposes and who currently works for a production house in Florida, there are two friends I have worked on several DV projects with and one film that are just all around handy dudes to have around, and I also have a few friends that are interested in providing production assitance. Outside of that there are a few people I could possibly draw upon from our local public access station which is where I check most of my equipment out from whenever there is a need.

In regards to the other things you mentioned...those are problems I am certainly trying to avoid. Time efficiency is something of a concern.

If you have to ask, you probably aren't anywhere near ready to produce your own film.

Well, I have to ask because I have never worked with anything on nearly this scale.

I suggest getting someone on board in your local area with lots of experience in one of those three roles. My preference is for a DP, they are least likely to try and take over your project.

That is the tentative plan right now, however finding someone in the Iowa City area who has working knowledge of the RED is proving more difficult than I had hoped.

I'd steer away from RED for your first show. I'd try a camcorder of sorts for your first few. They are very easy and fast to use.

Once you have a couple of easy pieces under your belt you can add the complications of a more professional camera system and its attendant crew.

Oh, and read. A LOT.

This is basically what I have been doing. My experience has mostly been with the Sony PD150 and a Panasonic AG-DVX100 for our little projects. As good as those cameras are I am looking for something of greater quality.

You are totally right though, I could save my money and use what I have available. At this point though I feel like I want to take the financial and logistical leap because I want to see if I can pull it off. Some people save money to go on vacation. I have been saving money to make the best film I can....hopefully.


Thank you everyone. You are all giving me a great jumping off point mentally. If anyone can think of anything to add please feel free.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Get a good 1st AD/Producer to keep everything straight and on schedule.
Get a good DP to give your picture that professional look.
Get a good 1st AC to make sure you don't waste time with takes out of focus and finicky cameras.
Get a good DIT/Datawrangler to make sure you have something to edit at the end of the day.
Get a good Grip to manage equipment and let your DP and 1st AC work efficiently.

Between those 5 at a minimum you should be able to do Ok assuming you have small setups. Also spend as much time and energy in great locations as possible. A great location with good light can save a lot of time and effort. Not even RED can make a boring white wall apartment look sexy and big budget.

I'll echo that great advice and add a fantastic sound guy can do amazing things seriously. Scout locations and be friendly with people you'd be suprised some of the locations that can be arranged at no cost that add epic scale to a project with minimum dressing.

 

[JustinBrown]

Another thing I was thinking about is what type of lighting kits would bhe reccomended? I have a basic 3 point kit available but that seems to be to minimal for doing any good lighting. Any suggestions?

 

[JustinBrown]

I'll echo that great advice and add a fantastic sound guy can do amazing things seriously. Scout locations and be friendly with people you'd be suprised some of the locations that can be arranged at no cost that add epic scale to a project with minimum dressing.

Good idea. This project will mostly be filmed in my home if I can't find the "epic scale" you and others are speaking of.

 

[Krishna Rajan]

OK i am going to say it....

if this is your first short film ever as a filmmaker/director then red is probably a wrong choice. Red is an amazing product but it takes a fair bit of experience to get the right kind of image. Assuming that you manage to put together a decent red crew who could do the job for you, chances are that you will learn little. If you are just starting out its better to make some mistakes and learn from it. It might be a bit counter intutive but a great red crew will make your job way too easy ! . i hope you understand what i am saying.

i would highly recommend looking at some other options like HDSLR etc. Try doing one or two films with those camera's before jumping on red. I am sure within 6 months or couple of movies down the road you would be ready for red.

just my 2 cents.

krish

 

[Jay Gannon]

Well I would think if hes shot a few shorts on SD he prob can get something good out of a RED shoot.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Another thing I was thinking about is what type of lighting kits would bhe reccomended? I have a basic 3 point kit available but that seems to be to minimal for doing any good lighting. Any suggestions?

Indoors? Outdoor?, depends on what the movie is.

 

[JustinBrown]

Indoors? Outdoor?, depends on what the movie is.

It's about 65% indoor. The rest being outdoor, and mostly at night.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Justin - Hire a cinematographer and allow him/her to decide which camera system and lights are best for your production. It is their job after all.

Hire an experienced 1stAD and production sound mixer.

You are only as good as your crew...

Speaking of which, what is a RED crew? As far as I know, any camera assistant worth your time/money knows several camera systems. If the person in question only knows the RED...

 

[JustinBrown]

OK i am going to say it....

if this is your first short film ever as a filmmaker/director then red is probably a wrong choice.

It's not, but I hear ya.

i hope you understand what i am saying.

I do

i would highly recommend looking at some other options like HDSLR etc. Try doing one or two films with those camera's before jumping on red. I am sure within 6 months or couple of movies down the road you would be ready for red.

just my 2 cents.

krish

Thanks. I had thought about it, and I suppose it's still an option. Just not an option that would be my first choice.

 

[JustinBrown]

Justin - Hire a cinematographer and allow him/her to decide which camera system and lights are best for your production. It is their job after all.

Hire an experienced 1stAD and production sound mixer.

You are only as good as your crew...

Speaking of which, what is a RED crew? As far as I know, any camera assistant worth your time/money knows several camera systems. If the person in question only knows the RED...

Good points Shawn. I am trying to find people just like that.

 

[Shawn Booth]

You know, not long ago, people used to make their first films on film! Even with no experience...

Shoot on whatever, just learn from your experiences and get yourself an experienced crew. Or don't, this IS the modern age of filmmaking where everyone knows everything and wears all the hats at once...

Or shoot 8mm and learn how to conserve film and shoot only what you need. You'd benefit and learn a lot doing this.

Cameras don't make the story/show.