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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Shooting w/o a matte box…..

One of the best reasons for a mattebox is the one that most people don't want to think about. It is the sacrificial lamb. Cameras can get knocked around and bumped easily. Handheld, on sticks, mounted to a dolly or rig -- I've seen them take all kinds of abuse. Sometimes it's just the moments when moving from one setup to another. No matter what the cause, if something is coming towards my expensive lens & camera, I'd far prefer the mattebox to take the hit. I think the old Chrosziel mattebox I had with my Super-16 Aaton kit went down for the count a good half dozen times plus plenty of minor nicks and bumps, but never was the camera of lens ever harmed. Totally worth it.
 
Steve Gibby said:
In my Post #25 on this thread you'll find a whole list of reasons why a lot of professionals, especially in some styles of shooting with Red cameras, don't use a matte box:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?3941-Using-ND-filters-for-EFP/page3
Click to expand...

Gibby! Where have you been?

Excellent post...matte boxes have their place as a tool, like any other. Not every style of shooting needs a tripod, a steadi-cam, or a zoom lens, either. But knowing when to use them can make all the difference!
 
the good thing about reduser is that everyone (even timmy ;) can share their considerable experience and make recommendations, and the rest of us can apply that to our own style... because we all approach the race uniquely.
 
I do own a MB...

But I also modified a Cokin "Z" filter holder so I can recycle my 4x5.65 filters. I have a series of step-up rings and 3 sizes of the Cokin rings and can mount upto 3 of my 4x5's on the front of any glass I own (All Canon mounts currently)

And if you use a Vert Grad you can even adjust the posotion.

It does look a bit odd though and the filters are VERY VULNERABLE!!!
 
The point that I make is that shooting with a mattebox delivers positive results. There are times where it does no good but most of the time there is a benefit to having one in front of the lens. If I hired a second camera to shoot with me and he showed up without a matte box, I would be concerned that his footage wouldn't have the same quality and the cameras wouldn't match. It seems like ND and a Tru Pol Polarizer are essential in delivering better looking footage, not to mention sheltering the front of the lens. When all the ENG style shooters say they don't need one….I'm not sure that they know what they are missing. I can't imagine not using one.
 
Lee, I would think a mattebox and flags would act like a sail on your Segway setup. Those things flappin' away, smacking folks as you whiz by, just sayin'.
 
I couldn't imagine shooting without it. I don't always use the flags but the MB is always on.
 

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Lee Dashiell said:
The point that I make is that shooting with a mattebox delivers positive results. There are times where it does no good but most of the time there is a benefit to having one in front of the lens. If I hired a second camera to shoot with me and he showed up without a matte box, I would be concerned that his footage wouldn't have the same quality and the cameras wouldn't match. It seems like ND and a Tru Pol Polarizer are essential in delivering better looking footage, not to mention sheltering the front of the lens. When all the ENG style shooters say they don't need one….I'm not sure that they know what they are missing. I can't imagine not using one.
Click to expand...

Those shooting Red cameras without matte boxes are primarily those who're using 35mm still lenses, and work in the various EFP and hybrid EFP styles of shooting, and also still photography. We're using a combination of screw on filters and either clamp on or screw on lens hoods - and achieving what we would with a matte box - with out all the added bulk, weight, and expense of a matte box and drop in filters. Those who know how to effectively use a rig with a combo of screw on filters and lens hoods are getting every bit as good of footage as they'd get using a bulky and expensive matte box and drop ins. Those same 35mm lenses we're using on Red cameras are used routinely in the still photography industry on ultra-high megapixel cameras with screw on filters and lens hoods. But somehow when we put the same lenses on CMOS sensor cameras like Red One, Epic, and Scarlet, which share significant amounts of basic technology with the DSLR cameras that 35mm still lenses were designed for - then we somehow can't get good results on those Red cameras with those same screw on filters and lens hoods? Simply put, that's ridiculous. For several years now a large portion of the Red cameras shooting world has been shooting Red cameras with 35mm still lenses equipped with screw on filters and lens hoods - and getting great results.

In the genres I work in, and I've done work for 18 different national broadcast and cable networks, if I hired someone for my crew and they showed up with a matte box, I'd have him take it off and issue him screw on filters and a lens hood. But then again the people I hire for EFP, hybrid, and still photography are pre-briefed to know what to show up with.

ND and polarizer? Each of my camera crews carries a small waist pack containing multiple screw on ND and a polarizer in them - and the lens hood we use do an excellent job of keeping stray light and flares off the lenses. But then again that's exactly what they're designed to do.

ENG? Who brought up ENG in this thread? ENG is "electronic news gathering", which is something Red cameras have very rarely been used for. The only Red camera which has good ENG usage potential is the Scarlet Fixed, with its multiple EFP/ENG friendly features, including internal ND filters. EFP (electronic field production) shares some of the similar equipment and technology of ENG, but shooting styles can be way different depending on the genre of EFP. Within EFP the basic divisions are non-hardlined and hardlined. Red One has been used extensively in non-hardlined EFP, especially for real mobile productions that don't have quick turnaround time pressure in post. Epic and Scarlet have way more EFP-friendly features than Red One has - thus they'll be used extensively for EFP work. For a concise breakdown of the EFP and ENG industries, what equipment is used, and how Red One applies to each you need look no farther than my Sticky thread at the top of the "EFP/ENG and Red" forum right here on Red User, which has been on Red User since early 2007.
Link: http://reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-EFP-ENG-and-RED

Hybrid EFP, which has been and will be practiced extensively with Red cameras, is simply using 35mm still lenses on Red cameras, but shooting in an EFP style, eye focusing the shots (no AC), quick exposure frequently using zebras, and accessorizing the lenses in an EFP or still photo setup - screw on filters, lens hoods, etc. The "hybrid" term here simply refers to using 35mm still lenses hybridized with a camera originally designed for PL lenses, and then using EFP shooting techniques, rather than traditional cine techniques.

If you don't need to use a matte box, that's fine, each shooter needs to evaluate the industries they work in, the shooting styles and appropriate camera accessories that best get the job done, and proceed that way. There is no universal "right" way to accessories Red cameras - but there is a "right" way for each genre, shooting style, and production. Professionals analyze all factors and proceed accordingly.

Lumping non-cine style shooters into a catch all term of "ENG", then also saying "they don't know what they're missing" with a matte box, takes a big giant swipe at a significant portion of the Red User community. Especially with these DSMC cameras in play now it is a big, increasingly diverse community here on Red User - cine, EFP, hybrid EFP, stills, and yes some ENG. We all need to give respect and expect the same back. I'm sure my longtime good friends at Red would agree with that...
 
Steve Gibby said:
Those shooting Red cameras without matte boxes are primarily those who're using 35mm still lenses, and work in the various EFP and hybrid EFP styles of shooting, and also still photography. We're using a combination of screw on filters and either clamp on or screw on lens hoods...
Click to expand...

I certainly love your passion but I'm referring more to using no filtration at all. I typically think of dropping filters in a matte box rather than screwing them on the end but thats your choice. I never said a word about still lenses and don't know what that has to do with it. I own and shoot Zeiss ZF 18, 25, 35, 50, 85, & Nikon 135 primes, Nikon 17-55, 28-70, 80-200 and Tokina 11-16 Zooms and love them all.

My point is that I see a lot of EPICS in the wild with nothing but a bare lens.
 
Lee,

We agree, no filtration at all with Red cameras usually makes no sense at all - unless lighting is so low that ND filters simply aren't needed.

Cine style shooters almost always use a matte box and drop in filters. These guys you mentioned in your thread-opening post (and I'm on of them) who've been showing Epics without a matte box, will almost all be 35mm lens shooters on Epic. We've simply been waiting for the new Canon (and Nikon) smart mounts from Red to ship. Those Canon mounts are now just about to ship so you'll be seeing a lot of camera setup pics on Red User with Canon lenses, screw-on filters, and lens hoods - not in the cine style crowd, but rather in the various EFP styles, and among still photographers with these DSMC cameras.

From your thread opening post"
"I've seen more pictures of Epic-M's in the hands of their owners with no matte box. It looks very much like "My mom bought me and Epic-M so now I'm a DP". No matter how you cut it that's a sarcastic slam on those who choose to go without a matte box - and thus nearly the total majority of us you slammed are 35mm still lens users who work in the non-cine and still photo industries. Intentional or not it reads the same...

I know you own and use the 35mm still lenses you posted - once this thread got rolling I visited on your web site equipment page. That had me scratching my head and wondering "Why hasn't he tried a lighter weight camera set up with screw ons and a lens shade?", and then "Since this guy uses 35mm still lenses on Red, why would this guy be ripping on those who accessorize their Red cameras differently?". Perhaps it wasn't intentional, but that statement from your thread opening post, and the later posted erroneous lumping of all non-matte box users into "ENG" who "don't know what their missing" comes off as being real disrespectful of the diverse production styles and industries represented here on Red User - or just plain cine style eliteism. If you somehow didn't intend it that way, cool. But if you did, there's really no room for that kind of stuff here on Red User.

Its all good Lee. Live and let live here. Every professional shooter here, whether they work in cine, the various EFP styles, hybrid, stills, or ENG - or work in all of them like I have - has good practical and fiscal reasons for accessorizing their Red cameras for the specific work they do.

On another note - I liked your web site. Looks like you do some very cool and interesting work. Peace...
 
I'm far from a cine style elitist. I do many things that would be considered unorthodox and I'm ok with that as long as it works. I think that my comment was received outside the manner in which it was intended. There are many things to learn here on REDUSER and one of them would be to use some filtration in front of a raw lens. There's a great value in doing so, whether it's in a matte box or inside a hood or screw on. That's the case when shooting stills as well however many people don't use anything and it baffles me. Owning a RED or EPIC or ALEXA doesn't warrant professional respect in the industry, it's what you can achieve with that tool that delivers respect.
 
Glad to hear that your comments weren't coming from a cine elitist position Lee...

Comments can be taken different ways, so its a good to think "How can this be taken?" before posting something. If you review this thread you'll find others who also thought non-cine shooting styles were being slammed. Everybody uses filtration with Red cameras, except in real low light where ND isn't needed. It would also baffle me if someone didn't effectively filter a Red camera. That's really "Red Camera 101" stuff. But how they choose to filter and shade their lenses on Red simply depends on the style they're shooting and the genres they work in.

Huge numbers of Red camera owners, myself included, have put their camera work performance and resultant high-level credits where their mouths are - and not just people who work in one particular shooting style Red has been used in. A pro is a pro whether they're using a tiny point and shoot camera, a Red camera, an Alexa, a phantom, an IMAX camera, or whatever. But then again that proves my point - with Red cameras whether someone chooses to use a matte box with drop ins, or screw in filters and a lens hood has no bearing on whether they're a pro or not. Your previous comment that Epic-M owners without matte boxes on their cameras look like "my Mom bought me an Epic-M so now I'm a DP" clearly implies that if someone doesn't use a matte box they're not a real DP - in other words not professional. How else can that be taken Lee? See what I'm getting at?

I'm simply one example of a Red camera matte box non-user whose earned a lot of respect for their Red camera work. There are also tons of other Red professionals, here and elsewhere, who have big bios and credits - and they regularly use screw-on filters and lens shades on the 35mm still lenses on their Red cameras. Their footage looks incredible too...

You can't judge a book by its cover - and you can't judge a professional in this industry by what lenses and accessories they have on their camera. Just sayin...
 
I think that you're taking this a little too personal. I haven't directed anything toward you. Sorry you feel that way.
 
No worries Lee...

From the first day Red User went live in January 2006 I've filled the role of the lead proponent here for "alternative setups and uses". Early on when I was a Moderator for Red User I assumed the role of defender for the non-cine crowd here. Back then, and many times since, its been unbelievable the intolerance of alternative setups and uses some members and visitors here have exhibited - and that was just toward Red One users. Fast forward to the present DSMC cameras. Red has designed and now has delivered the first of many DSMC camera models (Epic-M), which are intentionally designed to be accessorized and used in basically any of the image shooting styles or industries - and yet we still see lots of traditionalists here and elsewhere making snide remarks about those who accessorize and use their Red cameras in non-cine ways, or in this case without a cine-style accessory (matte box).

I think we all need to give others a lot of credit and respect for their camera setup choices. I'm way tired of seeing young newcomers to the industry thinking they have to accessorize, lens, and operate their cameras with certain items and techniques - just so they'll be perceived as a "real" cinematographer. They want to be accepted by a group, and get that way by listening to hogwash from some traditionalists who just can't think "outside the (matte) box" as they approach accessorizing a Red camera.

Lee, outside of the items we've discussed here, I have no axe to grind whatsoever with you or anyone else - as long as I feel respect is being given to everyone, no matter what their lens and accessory choices are. At the same time I want newcomers to the "Red World" to get a balanced picture on what the accessory and lens options for Red cameras are.

I'm sure your accessory and lens choices for Red cameras have been working for you - but that doesn't mean they work for others of us here.

We've worked this subject over so perhaps its best if we just move on...
 
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